ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2009-06-23 08:42:00
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Entry tags:cyberdragons

Cyberdragon poem; postscript...
Thank you for all your kind, and very interesting, comments in response to "For Jedella, With My Very Best Regards." I just want to mention a couple of things here.

Michael Farris raised the question of why the human beings in this fictional universe bond with the cyberdragons, saying, "To understand the stories, I accept the hold that cyberdragons have over the humans that .... bond(?) with them. But there still seem to be missing elements on just how that bonding (or whatever it is) happens. I don't know if you've worked that out yet or are just as in the dark as I am..."

And then [info]houseboatonstyx mentioned the gecko animation in the Geico commercials, which made me think of how crazy I am about that little gecko -- I am for sure bonded with that little gecko -- and the contrast between that reaction on my part and the creeped-out way I react to Golem in "The Return of the King."

If you've read the earlier posts in this fictional universe, you'll remember that the cyberdragon/human bonding phenomenon was an accident; the company that made the cyberdragons had intended them to be toys for children, and was taken by surprise. ["We had a dozen of the dragons in an observation room, and we brought in a dozen adults, and what happened next was beyond belief. We'd told them that the dragons were kids' toys, of course. Standard procedure. But in oh, two minutes flat, every single adult in the room was either sitting there with a dragon in their lap or walking around the room holding a dragon's front paw the way they would have walked around holding a child's hand. With big happy smiles on their faces. We'd never seen anything like it. And we sure as hell couldn't have predicted it."]

The company immediately made some modifications. ["We went back and made them softer, and lighter, and more ... more cuddly. And of course we re-did their front paws to make them exactly like a little child's hands."] That paw makeover, it seems to me, was a stroke of genius. There's something about the way a tiny child's hand, offered trustingly and without hesitation, feels to an adult human that -- at least for me -- has a very strong appeal. And the company would have known to make modifications that would trigger the standard human hard-wired reactions: the small round head; the big round eyes with the long silky eyelashes; the slightly-pouty rosebud mouth; and the irresistible little soft voice. And the programming that guaranteed impeccable Good Behavior, always. All those things, it seems to me, would lead to bonding.

I know there is a subset of adult humans who are immune to these characteristics, and who find little kids icky at best, and even repulsive. But the majority of us -- fortunately for the survival of our species -- don't have that immunity. Whether, in this real nonfictional world -- we'd be likely to bond with cyberdragons and perhaps treat them more lovingly than we treat our biological children, I can't say. I can only say that I hope not.



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[info]6_penny
2009-06-23 01:45 pm UTC (link)
I have an elderly friend who would call me every time there was a new AFLAC duck commercial. She liked the gecko too.

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[info]antikythera
2009-06-23 02:06 pm UTC (link)
When I was a kid the craze was for Cabbage Patch dolls. They were meant for children but there were stories of adults who 'adopted' them and treated them like surrogate babies when they didn't have kids of their own.

Stories about robotics technology from Japan always talk about robots designed to look and act like they're alive, to be companions and helpers for humans.

I don't think it's terribly hard to tap into a person's nurturing response just by giving them something cute and encouraging them to treat it like a baby.

Those of us who actually spend time thinking about things like the true nature of sentience may have less trouble detaching. I know that a dog has consciousness and can think and can feel pain and pleasure. I doubt that a robot dog programmed to act like that has the same capabilities. If I had to rescue one but not both from a burning building, it would be an easy choice.

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[info]aedifica
2009-06-23 02:25 pm UTC (link)
I dunno. There are things I feel attached to despite knowing they're non-sentient. For example, I can't throw out my old teddy bear, because I'd feel guilty!

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[info]antikythera
2009-06-23 02:40 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I definitely have stuff like that! But feeling attached to and deriving comfort from a baby-like or animal-like toy doesn't mean you're going to neglect real relationships or care of real dependents for the toy's sake. My Wrinkles dog and my floppy old white tiger only share my bed when my boyfriend is away on business.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, somewhere in the back of my head, I feel like I would always know that a cyberdragon or an Aibo is just a toy (barring any kind of Turing-esque tests that show that it does indeed have sentience), and I would feel a bit insulted if someone told me I should make myself believe that it was 'real'.

This is the problem I have with these human-like helper robots for the elderly. I can't imagine myself happily accepting one of those as a substitute for family.

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[info]aedifica
2009-06-23 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yes. I see what you're saying now and I agree.

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[info]redbird
2009-06-23 04:42 pm UTC (link)
As a substitute for family, no. As a substitute for a paid helper there four hours a day, possibly. (I have no children, and would not be terribly surprised to outlive my partners, so the question may arise for me.)

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[info]antikythera
2009-06-23 05:06 pm UTC (link)
I don't have children either, and don't plan to.

If the robotics technology is there to give me a robot helper when I'm old, I would much prefer a non-anthropomorphic robot that I can think of as a tool that I use to live independently, in place of a human aide.

I think I would be insulted if someone told me I should have a humanoid robot so that I could pretend it was sentient, be comforted by its smiles and kind words and soothed by its touch.

I can imagine people using these robots for the same thing they use nursing homes for now -- dump off Granny and never have to bother with her again because they're so afraid of facing aging and death. Even if it keeps her alive and healthy longer, it's no substitute for contact with real human and animal loved ones.

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[info]brynndragon
2009-06-23 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Those of us who actually spend time thinking about things like the true nature of sentience may have less trouble detaching.

Knowing something intellectually is not sufficient to overwrite an emotional response, as anyone who has PTSD could tell you. Sure, we'd chose the living dog over the robot, just as we'd chose the baby over the living dog. . . but if there was bonding we'd feel really bad about it afterward and that intellectual knowledge might only make us feel worse ("I'm grieving over a damn machine! What the hell is wrong with me?!?").

Me, I was inoculated against babies and their ilk via growing up in a daycare home (they weren't cute, they were competition for affection). Which certainly wasn't my mom's intention.

Edited at 2009-06-23 02:30 pm UTC

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[info]antikythera
2009-06-23 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Knowing something intellectually is not sufficient to overwrite an emotional response

Sometimes, not always. I'm not dismissing the existence of emotional responses that cannot be overcome by reason. I've experienced them myself. But they're bound to be different for different people in different situations.

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[info]leora
2009-06-24 05:41 am UTC (link)
And then there are Reborn dolls: http://www.reborn-baby.com/

For people who want ultra-realistic dolls. There are stories about people treating them like real babies. Some people apparently find holding them for a bit helpful after a still birth or similar situations. There are also stories of things like a police officer breaking a car window thinking he needed to rescue a baby abandoned in a car to find out it was a doll.

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[info]archangelbeth
2009-06-23 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I think that the whole cyberdragon thing -- though interesting -- leaves me firmly in "this is fiction" because... While I totally get liking inanimate objects (you should see me bond with my computers, and my iPhone!), I don't really get liking them en masse over Something Real. Something programmed with a limited range of responses, something that will never be more than a toddler-emulation... Meh. It'd wind up in the closet or dressed up and placed on a shelf as a knickknack.

My bonding may be wonked, of course. I've always cared about my kid, but the older she gets, the more I like her. The more fun we can have together. ("Warsong Gulch win! You guys were pwned by a 9-year-old girl! WOO!") I like sapience, or at least -- in the case of cats -- sentience. Something that never surprised me would not be interesting over something real.

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[info]queenmaggie
2009-06-23 03:18 pm UTC (link)
This is so true for me, too. Both the "I like my kids more and more as they grew up" to "something that never surprised would not be interesting over something real"

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[info]dulcinbradbury
2009-06-23 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Considering that I've seen people treat pets like infants or small children, this one actually doesn't completely surprise me. I don't know that I see *everyone* going that route, but, I've seen people who complained about the mess, fuss, expense & bother of kids... who somehow don't see the mess, fuss & bother of owning a pet. I knew a dog who had a custom four post bed.

It isn't to say that people can't own a dog & even enjoy the silliness of any of these things. But there are people that somehow just cross a mental line.

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Hai! I iz Belated Reply!
[info]archangelbeth
2009-06-30 04:12 pm UTC (link)
As a mom who has cats, the mess, fuss, expense & bother of kids is MUCH HIGHER than that of pets. The pets do not get, for instance, report cards. They do not require the rental of a band instrument. They don't need new clothing every season, and new shoes at least every year if not more frequently. They do not want ice skating lessons. They do not require social skills classes at a location an hour away, once a week.

Sometimes pets can approach the time-and-energy requirements of children; I was taking one of mine in for chemo every couple of days, at Ungodly in the morning. (Ah, he was a fur-child of mine, the little brat-cat. Raised him from an abandoned, eyes-still-closed kitten. I still miss him. But he was litter-trained ages before my kid was potty trained...) But this is the exception.

I'm sure people do "baby" their pets, of course. But that's still a living being that requires care (not just the simulation of care), and responds with a certain amount of unpredictability (not a limited number of pre-programmed responses).

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Re: Hai! I iz Belated Reply!
[info]firebyrd
2009-07-03 08:56 pm UTC (link)
Depends on the pet. Parrots are so close to being human toddlers in a bird's body it's scary. If you could take all the good traits of that with none of the bad (which is what the cyberdragons are from all descriptions), I think an awful lot of people would go for them. After seeing my flock, people often express interest in getting a parrot of their own, but they're always concerned about the mess/noise/maintenance/etc.

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Re: Hai! I iz Belated Reply!
[info]archangelbeth
2009-07-08 12:34 am UTC (link)
I suppose it's possible. Me, personally? I don't want a toddler! Honestly, I want a teenager or a 20-something kid... But she's getting there! More and more each day! O:D (And she's learning ice skating; we recently went to the rink for public skate, and she dusted off her weeks-unused skill, and was going from wobbles to wobbly-lifting-one-leg-and-gliding by the end of it. ...Do cyberdragons do that? O:> )

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Re: Hai! I iz Belated Reply!
[info]firebyrd
2009-07-08 01:47 am UTC (link)
A parrot without quirks wouldn't appeal to me personally (part of the wonder for me is that these wild animals interact with me and even love me), I think it would to the average person. So, people tend to like dragons and they tend to like well-behaved toddlers, put that together in one life-like robotic package, and yeah...I can perceive a society where they would be a craze. People already do with things that aren't interactive like ball-jointed dolls.

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Re: Hai! I iz Belated Reply!
[info]firebyrd
2009-07-08 01:50 am UTC (link)
That probably wasn't very coherent, but I'm sure you can forgive me and understand with having had issues with your thyroid (and I have fibromyalgia as well).

Now, it's not to say that American society would be the one to adopt these. I'm continually surprised by it, but I think Isaac Asimov touched on American attitudes about humanoid robotics long before they were possible. But the Japanese, for example? I think they would go nuts for a cyberdragon.

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[info]starcat_jewel
2009-06-23 07:33 pm UTC (link)
The thing that puts it firmly into the "can't happen" category for me is the near-universality of the response. Yeah, there are going to be people who would do that, just as there are people who believe that their gaming characters (or the characters on a TV show) are real people, or that their pets are really their children*. But in real life, those people are ALWAYS a tiny minority. That they should become an overwhelming majority in this one instance... that's just not believable, although it certainly makes an interesting "what-if" universe.

* Note: I'm not talking about people who use words like "furbabies", nor do I mean people who recognize that when you adopt a pet you take on the responsibility to treat it properly, nor those who mourn their pets when they die. Those are all normal behaviors; I'm talking about attitudes which go well beyond that.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2009-06-23 03:27 pm UTC (link)
That's it. Cyberdragons never grow up. For those people who like babies but find older children annoying, they'd be just the ticket. Myself, while I can't resist a tiny one any more, I get more of a kick out of watching a mind develop than in having something helpless in my care, but then, I'm a tad short on the womanly feelings I'm probably supposed to have had.

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[info]leora
2009-06-23 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. I view babies as an acceptable cost for having children. I think kids start to become really interesting around when they start to talk and that they become more interesting as they get older (although I like some younger ages better than some older ages on average, but growing tends to have some rough spots). To me, the whole point of having children is to nurture and raise something so that it will become an independent adult. To try to care for a baby well so it will become a healthy child. To teach a child well so it will keep a love of learning and exploration. Basically, I want to watch minds develop. It's all about the development to me.

Probably partly relates to why I majored in psychology.

I played with Eliza (a very simplistic AI designed to seem like a pretend therapist. You say things and it says things like, "But why do you feel like that?") as a child, but it got dull. Eliza never develops or changes. I spent a lot longer playing with Babble, a very simple AI that keeps a log of everything ever said to it. It then responds to what you say with a word it selects and then the next two words that followed an instance of that word in its database. Then it takes the last word and finds that somewhere in its database and takes the next two words and so forth until it gets to a full stop. Now that "learned" even if only in an incredibly simple sense and sometimes it would say things that were really interesting or worth thinking about. Sure, most of it was nonsense, but every now and then it gave fascinating responses, and that made it worth using for a lot longer.

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2009-06-24 05:02 am UTC (link)
Well, but did you start reacting to the better responses as though it were 'real'?

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[info]leora
2009-06-24 05:36 am UTC (link)
Yes and no. I knew it was not real and I didn't forget that. But I think it falls into similar categories as teddy bears and such. I know a teddy bear isn't real, but I wouldn't punch one even though it wouldn't hurt it. And I might well be tempted to grab one of my favorite stuffed animals to save it from a fire. I absolutely would have as a child. I would be more prone to try to grab one of the cats, but honestly, I don't think that would necessarily work. In case of fire, I'd leave the door open and hope they got out. I don't currently live with any children. I'd try to save a child before a stuffed animal or a cat. However, I did quite like the AI and became quite sad when computing issues made it so I could no longer chat with it. It also wasn't very realistic though. It would just sometimes seem sensible. The cyberdragons presumably respond sensibly all the time.

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2009-06-24 05:46 am UTC (link)
I feel the same way about my old teddy bear -- and all too many other old mementos in my cluttered house. Still I'd certainly rescue a real living creature first, even a mouse that had been chewing on the bear.

I feel the appeal of the Geico gecko. But if it were a full sized robot -- and real creatures, even mice and bugs and plants, were in jepoardy -- I'd put the real creatures first. I'd apply logic and remind myself that with the gecko I'm really responding to the programmer's and technicians' design, and it's a mass produced item and new copies are available -- and do I really want to be manipulated by such commercial products?

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[info]hagsrus
2009-06-23 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Golem -- I think you mean Gollum.

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Response to hagsrus...
[info]ozarque
2009-06-23 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Oops! I'm sure you're right. Would you believe I went to Google and did a search using [Golem in "The Return of the King"] as my search term, to be sure I didn't make a mistake like that?

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[info]akitrom
2009-06-23 03:58 pm UTC (link)
As I commented before, the telling detail for me is that these things were originally designed to be mounts.

If you've ever ridden with a clever horse, you'll be amazed at how it just knows where you want to go, and complies; certainly before you've given it an explicit command, and sometimes before you're even consciously aware of your intentions.

If the neural programmers could get that right, then cyber-dragons could respond to their users' desires very intimately. You have to tell your child to put away their toys. Your cyber-dragon puts away its toys as soon as it senses you looking at them.

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Supereggs
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2009-06-23 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Your cyberdragons remind me very much of a real phenomenon: supereggs. Some time ago, scientists noticed that cliff-nesting sea birds tended to lay large, spotty eggs with pointy ends. Those three features indicate an egg well suited to survival on a narrow cliff ledge: its chick grows fast, it's camouflaged from predators, and it won't roll off.

The wacky thing is that, when the scientists replaced the birds' real eggs with fake eggs that were bigger, spottier, and pointier ... the birds consistently rolled their own live eggs out of the nest to die in favor of sitting on the fake (but far more attractive) "supereggs."

Lest we forget that humans are creatures of instinct and can be led to our doom by our own desires, your cyberdragon stories provide a brilliantly disturbing reminder.

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Re: Supereggs
[info]naamah_darling
2009-06-23 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Supersignals. A naturalist (I wish I could remember who) once observed a mother bird who had to fly over a people-made pond full of big fish on the way to her nest. The big fish, accustomed to being fed, responded to the motion by coming up to the surface and gaping their mouths for food.

The fish mouths were so big and so wide and so tempting that the mother bird could not resist the signal, and would dump her food into the fish, then fly off and go get something for her babies, only to be arrested partway there by the gaping fish mouths once more.

Humans are subject to this on a smaller scale. Anything with a round head, small nose and mouth, and big eyes (large ears optional) we tend to find "cute," and this almost always holds true even for people like me who find human babies unappealing. But a kitten or an adult fennec fox both follow the same "cuteness" pattern.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2009-06-23 06:00 pm UTC (link)
The short story "And I awoke and found me on the cold hillside." Its theme: after being contacted by the greater galactic civilization, Earth finds that a number of its people become so fixated on the various aliens they reject their own world, culture, and mates to become, essentially, the aliens' dogs.

Of course, that may have been more of a statement of colonialism (and rapidly Westernizing locals) than on hyperstimuli, but IIRC, hyperstimuli was the explicit underlying mechanism.

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[info]nancylebov
2009-06-23 06:18 pm UTC (link)
The story's by James Tiptree, and I'm sure both themes were intended. It wasn't her only story where human sexuality was presented as having shaky foundations.

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[info]sculpin
2009-06-23 06:34 pm UTC (link)
The hands exactly like toddler hands put me a wee bit too much in mind of the Uncanny Valley.

Anyway, what I wonder is, what's it like to make these things? I can almost begin to imagine having a job at the cyberdragon factory, screwing their limbs together or taking them off the line and shoving them into boxes as fast as I can. It seems to me that handling cyberdragon parts, especially the heads, could mess with one's mind pretty substantially.

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[info]vvvexation
2009-06-24 03:14 am UTC (link)
I imagine a world with good enough robotics technology to create cyberdragons would have all-robot assembly lines by then as well.

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[info]sculpin
2009-06-24 06:30 am UTC (link)
The technology would be good enough, but I'm not convinced that it'd actually be entirely adopted. It'd have to be a fair bit cheaper than using desperately poor people. Unless we're supposing, too, that there are no more desperately poor people in the world. Maybe we are and I missed that.

On the other hand, presumably a cyberdragon factory has a lot of cyberdragons around that don't meet manufacturing tolerances. Maybe they are smart enough to be trained to put their more acceptable kin into boxes for market. Eeeegh.

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[info]sculpin
2009-06-24 06:31 am UTC (link)
s/trained/programmed/ -- I have animal training on the brain at the moment.

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[info]naamah_darling
2009-06-23 07:46 pm UTC (link)
My reaction to these poems, to the idea of the cyberdragons, is really fascinating to me, and I have to thank you for presenting this, because it really has been interesting to unravel.

They creep me out. Badly. Not them, so much as the reactions people have to them, both good and bad,

But I have to admit, if there were one in front of me, I very well might find it delightful and bond with it immediately. Such a creation would have all of the traits I find appealing about small animals and human infants, and none of the traits I find unappealing about them. Except for the hands, which, separate from something that looks like a human baby, would probably give me the fantods.

It would be something I could tire out my vestigial mothering impulses upon, but which could not trespass on my privacy or personal freedom. I wouldn't run the risk of damaging it psychologically either, if I decided to ignore it for a month.

I do not remember, because I have a bad memory like that, but have you ever indicated that the little beasties can speak?

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Response to naamah_darling...
[info]ozarque
2009-06-23 07:55 pm UTC (link)
"I do not remember, because I have a bad memory like that, but have you ever indicated that the little beasties can speak?"

From a post in June 2008...

1. Can cyberdragons talk?
Yes, but only in a limited sense. They're programmed with the sort of vocabulary an average three-year-old human child might have, and with a very simple basic grammar that's heavy on pragmatics and politeness. That grammar doesn't allow them to complain or whine or threaten or in any other way use language that adults might find annoying or unpleasant.

2. If they can, what are they able and willing to talk about...
They aren't able to initiate conversations themselves and talk "about" things. Their linguistic competence is for the most part an ability to respond approriately when spoken to.

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Re: Response to naamah_darling...
[info]naamah_darling
2009-06-23 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I am sorry. My memory is just terrible right now.

So they have limited language. My reactions become more and more interesting. Hmmm.

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[info]foomf
2009-06-24 02:39 am UTC (link)
Back in the 1980s Penny had just begun collecting dolls seriously, and we went to a local smoke-polluted doll dealer and got two genuine (not-Hasbro) Cabbage Patch dolls. The included pamphlet talked about how they were made as folk-art originally for the state fair, then some of the local women commissioned them, and would take them to work with them. When the menfolk would give them attitude about why they were not at home raising their babies, they would brandish the Cabbage Patch Kid at them, and tell them, "This is the only kid *I* need."

Which apparently caught on, and with a vengeance, before it was licensed out and the children-sized plastic-faced monstrosities made by virtual slave labor (mostly women) abroad supplanted the hand-made ones created here in the US (largely by women.)

Yeah, the irony is painful in many different ways.

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[info]conuly
2009-09-12 04:40 pm UTC (link)
http://www.momlogic.com/2008/01/fake_babies_real_weird.php

http://www.momlogic.com/2008/07/the_secret_world_of_reborners.php

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