ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2008-10-08 08:28:00
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Eldering; talking to elders...
My thanks to all of you who have sent me alerts for the Heidi Schumann New York Times article titled "In 'Sweetie' and 'Dear,' a Hurt for the Elderly," at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/us/07aging.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin . Which opens with this:

"Professionals call it elderspeak, the sweetly belittling form of address that has always rankled older people: the doctor who talks to their child rather than to them about their health; the store clerk who assumes that an older person does not know how to work a computer, or needs to be addressed slowly or in a loud voice. Then there are those who address any elderly person as 'dear.' "

Suppose I start by clearing away the usual science-journalism clutter. I would start by saying that I don't know which group of professionals uses the term "elderspeak" for this sort of thing. For linguists, "elderspeak" would have to refer to some register spoken by elders, not one spoken to elders. Then I'd need to point out that the only item in the paragraph that goes with "the sweetly belittling form of address that has always rankled older people" is the bit about addressing any elderly person as "dear." And then there's the fact that the "any elderly person" who is addressed as "dear" [or as "sweetie," for that matter] is almost always going to be a female elder. Male elders get first-name address instead. With all that out of the way, we can move on.

The register in question is certainly "belittling"; sometimes it's "sweetly" belittling, sometimes not. And I can't think of any non-awkward name for it. An accurate but clunky name would be "AgeismSpeak"; for lack of any better alternative, I'll use that one. It goes with an automatic kneejerk assumption that all elders are cognitively impaired to such a degree that it's acceptable to speak to them as if they were small children.

The interesting paragraph in the article is the one on the research done by Prof. Becca Levy of Yale -- in "a long-term survey of 660 people over age 50 in a small Ohio town" -- which claims that elders whose perception of aging is positive "lived an average of 7.5 years longer" than those whose perceptions were negative. According to Leland, these results held even when researchers "controlled for differences in the participants' health conditions" and the 7.5 years of increased lifespan is greater than that associated with exercising or with being a non-smoker. I haven't read the original research; if it's accurately described by Leland, it's important.

I don't find it surprising in any way that elders who are consistently treated as if they are demented, decrepit, and incompetent -- or simply as if they are tiny children -- react to that language environment with a level of stress that is dangerous to their health. This is consistent with everything we know about the body/mind link as it relates to illness and to wellness. But just being careful about the vocabulary used with elders won't solve the problem, not if the nonverbal message -- carried by intonation, tone of voice, and other body language -- is still "I perceive you as a tiny child."

So far, I've been reasonably fortunate in my experience with this phenomenon. Most medical professionals (and their staffs) who address me as "Suzette" are people I consider to be friends, and people that I feel free to address by their first names. My dentist's staff all address me as "Dr. Elgin" -- which always startles the other patients in the waitingroom who've been sitting there thinking of me as a little old lady with bad hair. The only salespeople who've tried that tactic of talking to me verrrry slowly in words of one syllable, or very loudly, or calling me "dear" or "sweetie" have been individuals of two kinds: (a) those who were obviously themselves so dim that I felt sorry for them; and (b) those who snapped out of that style of communication instantly after they'd heard me say half a dozen words.

Enough for now...


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[info]lovecraftienne
2008-10-08 01:42 pm UTC (link)
I'd feel a ghostly smack round the earhole if I tried that on - my own grandmother's spirit would return with a vengeance, I think. For me, an older lady is always "ma'am", and an older man is always "sir", unless they seriously show they don't deserve such politeness. Geebus.

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[info]sunfell
2008-10-08 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Yup! Unless I am invited to use their first names, it would either be Mr, or Mrs- or "ma'am" or "sir".

I'm getting 'ma'amed' more and more as I get older. I remember the first time I was called a 'lady' by a stranger- I was maybe 20 or 21, and felt a surge of secret glee that I looked grown-up enough to be called 'lady'.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lovecraftienne, 2008-10-08 02:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sunfell, 2008-10-08 02:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zianuray, 2008-10-08 04:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]idiotgrrl
2008-10-08 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Out here I've noticed a bit of a reversal of the trend towards first-naming everyone: people my age are addressed (or I have been) as Mister or Ms. And the kids in college show the sort of public politeness I haven't seen since I came of age. Is it that I'm now of an age to merit this treatment? Or that the kids have been taught to do so? (Evidence for the latter: the manners my daughters are drilling into the heads of their children). But being treated like an idiot - and a hysterical one at that - was more a staple of my middle years, and appeared to be more sexism than anything else. And the people who use endearments seem to be the sort who use them towards everyone.

Maybe it's regional.

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[info]mamadeb
2008-10-08 02:33 pm UTC (link)
Possibly regional or cultural. In my Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, all the neighbor's kids and the children of my local friends, including the ones in my synagogue, call my husband and me Mr. and Mrs, whereas in a different one, the same cohort used our first names.

Of course, we're much older now.

Also. I like it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]atdelphi, 2008-10-08 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]janetmiles, 2008-10-08 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]atdelphi, 2008-10-08 04:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]aedifica, 2008-10-08 07:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]atdelphi, 2008-10-08 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rosalux, 2008-10-08 04:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]voxwoman, 2008-10-08 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)
I say "dear" to peers and those who are younger than me
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-10-08 02:29 pm UTC (link)
I also come out with a "sweetie" now and then. These little endearments are reserved for friends and acquaintances. I will admit that sometimes I do pop out with a "hon" or "honey" for a waiter, waitress or person in a shop, regardless of gender, who has been particularly nice to me.

However, for some reason, I never say such things to people who are older than I am unless they're friends.

Waitresses in certain areas here call everyone "honey", regardless of age and status. You could be the Archbishop in full regalia, and a "honey" would slip out. ;)

When I'm working at the polls, which I do several times a year, I say "sir" and "ma'am" a lot, though I do end up addressing many of the voters by name as I verify their addresses. I find that they appreciate it from such a "young" person. (I'm 55, and, unfortunately, so many voters are older than I am.)

I do remember being "sweetie" myself in such a condescending way. I was all of 27, and the person who did so was a medical student of perhaps 23. I had an abdominal pain, and, as was customary at the time, I got the youngest surgical intern on duty.

Another problem with medical personnel is the habit of not talking directly to the patient, but addressing anyone who happens to be with the patient. It's horrifying.

Somewhat OT. Here's another horrible little experiment. Try having laryngitis so badly that you cannot talk for a while, and need to communicate with others by writing on a pad. People will try to take your pad away from you to write their answers down. You'll need to have a page pre-written that says "I am not deaf--I have just lost my voice." The condescension level is hideously high, and people still don't want to talk directly to you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: I say "dear" to peers and those who are younger than me
[info]janetmiles
2008-10-08 02:35 pm UTC (link)
I do remember being "sweetie" myself in such a condescending way.

I got "honeyed" once by a paramedic after a car accident in which I'd hit my head. He was asking the orientation questions ("where are you? where were you going? what time is it?") and I said that I'd been at work and was on my way to class.

"Now, honey," he said, "do you work or do you go to school? Which is it?"

To which the only reply (I get both verbose and precise when I'm in shock) was, "I work full time during the day and go to school at night. Do you have a problem with that?"

(It probably didn't help that when he asked what hurt, I answered, "Do you want that from top to bottom or in perceived order of intensity?")

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: I say "dear" to peers and those who are younger than me - [info]voxwoman, 2008-10-08 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]janetmiles
2008-10-08 02:31 pm UTC (link)
My dentist's staff all address me as "Dr. Elgin" -- which always startles the other patients in the waitingroom who've been sitting there thinking of me as a little old lady with bad hair.

I tend to address people as they've introduced themselves to me, or as I know them from context, unless I know to do otherwise. Which means that, for example, the time I e-mailed you (as opposed to commenting here), I would normally have addressed the e-mail "Dear Ozarque" -- except that I know you prefer a higher degree of protocol.

It's been long enough that I hope you'll be amused by this: when I did send that e-mail, I spent about three hours scouring the 'net to see if you preferred "Dr. Elgin" or "Dr. Haden Elgin." I finally gave up and asked [info]ysabetwordsmith.

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[info]matociquala
2008-10-08 02:34 pm UTC (link)
For the record, you have gorgeous hair. And I think of you as a quite commanding presence, Dr. Elgin.

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Response to matociquala...
[info]ozarque
2008-10-09 12:43 pm UTC (link)
First off: Bless you, [info]matociquala.

And then there's the hair thing. Not too long ago one of my children was so desperately ill that I was terrified I'd lose that child, and I was the designated caregiver. During that time my hair went berserk; lots of it died and broke off, lots more of it fell out literally by handfuls. And the result is that it's now at least fifty different lengths, all of them curly. The effect is unquestionably Bad Hair. If I live another thirty years it will all have grown out to be the same length again, which would be nice. But it will take a long while. And in the meantime, people look at me and wonder why on earth I don't do something about my hair -- and I don't blame them one bit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Response to matociquala... - [info]matociquala, 2008-10-09 12:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Bad Hair - Good Vitamins - [info]galewarnings.blogspot.com, 2008-10-11 11:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Bad Hair - Good Vitamins ... response to galewarnings... - [info]ozarque, 2008-10-12 12:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Bad Hair - Good Vitamins ... response to galewarnings... - [info]galewarnings.blogspot.com, 2008-10-12 03:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Bad Hair - Good Vitamins ... response to galewarnings... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-10-13 12:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]manycolored
2008-10-08 03:18 pm UTC (link)
I don't like talking to children that way! Sometimes a particular relationship comes with a particular endearment or nickname, but I don't feel good about presuming. The only exception is trying to comfort them - then I'll use a generic endearment.

Older people seem to prefer being called "Mr." or "Mrs./Miss/Ms." So-and-so by service personnel. I kind of which that was still considered the way to do things. Not that I'm attached to my last name. In fact, I'm not big on the whole patrilineal last name business at all. But I do not like being addressed familiarly by strangers. It doesn't have the advantages of real loyalty and trust; nor does it have the advantages of cordial distance.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mizchalmers
2008-10-08 04:55 pm UTC (link)
I agree; the fact that we treat elders as children is only part of the problem. The big problem is that we presume to treat anyone - elders, children, women, the disabled, people of colour, Republican voters - as less than fully human. Respect is hard work. It's scary and it makes us vulnerable. But the alternatives are much worse.

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(no subject) - [info]mizchalmers, 2008-10-08 05:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to mizchalmers... - [info]ozarque, 2008-10-09 12:44 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]turbogrrl
2008-10-08 03:30 pm UTC (link)
One of the awkwardnesses of being an adult only child is that in many ways my parents *are* occasionally as competent as a small child. I can't afford children— I have my parents to deal with. And unlike children, I can't really hold out the hope that eventually they will learn from their mistakes; this is just how they are. So, when linguistically that creeps through... well, where did I learn how to speak to intractably difficult children? From my parents, of course! I don't do it deliberately.

I'm pretty certain that kids do not like "sweetly condescending" any more than adults do, but in general they absorb vast quantities of it. Combined with the fact that culturally we've been extending childhood almost through to the mid-20s, this means that all we've been doing is teaching vast numbers of people that it's fine to be condescending to anyone perceived to be less competent than oneself.

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[info]starcat_jewel
2008-10-08 03:54 pm UTC (link)
The kind of person who addresses older females as "dear" or "sweetie" is also very likely to address older males as "honey" or "hon" IME.

The opening of the previous sentence was very deliberately phrased. I despise fake intimacy, no matter the source. The only people who are entitled to use endearments to me are people with whom I am intimately associated, and I consider it extremely rude and ill-bred to do so to complete strangers.

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[info]sfw_dc
2008-10-09 02:16 am UTC (link)
Unless you are in Baltimore, where everyone is "hon."

(IMO and IME, anyhow.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]obake
2008-10-08 04:16 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if researchers would find a significant change in the "the sweetly belittling form of address" as they move from community to community, especially if they crossed cultural communities. I think it would be an interesting study--not only the study of how elders are addressed in different cultures, but the study of how the language clashes when cultural lines are crossed.

Having been raised in a primarily Asian community, I wouldn't even dream of addressing someone elder to me as "dear" or "sweetie" (though they are perfectly welcome to address me that way). Anyone older than me is at least a "Mr." or "Ms." (if not a "sir" or "ma'am") until I've been given permission to use another name. Even if I were in a dominant position, I still would show them that respect.

(Reply to this)


[info]6_penny
2008-10-08 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Some of the staff in the Assisted living that my parents were in were really DREADFUL in their mannerisms in this respect. I recall one former professor commenting that when he moved from the independent side to the AL side it was immediately assumed that it was his mind that was handicapped, not his body. He resented it terribly. (So did I, both on his behalf and that of my parents.
My late mother gradually lost her ability to communicate verbally, but that did not mean that the words heard were not being received and processed.

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[info]miz_geek
2008-10-08 04:45 pm UTC (link)
I'd guess the professionals referred to are gerontologists (who love a good bit of jargon), and I'll bet they didn't consult with many linguists before coming up with it. It looks like the word has been used in gerontology circles for a few years, though. It makes me wonder about the use of cross-discipline terminology in academia and whether it causes confusion or annoyance.

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[info]archangelbeth
2008-10-09 12:04 am UTC (link)
Perhaps coined by the gerontologists to parallel "baby talk"?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]silversliver, 2008-10-09 07:59 am UTC (Expand)
Hmm...
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-10-08 05:06 pm UTC (link)
One key problem feeding this is that aging bodies tend to require ever more frequent health-care maintenance, which means that elders spend proportionately much more time interacting with health care providers. And those people very frequently tend to treat everyone like children. They give orders and they resent any response other than abject obedience -- and they won't hesitate to force you to do things you have rational reasons for not doing, if they have the leverage. All a doctor has to do is threaten to withhold a prescription or other needed service unless you do what they want, and for an elder, there's often going to be something they can't afford to do without. That's an extremely vulnerable position to be in, physically as well as emotionally. No matter how smart or tough you are, if you require another person's help to get the materials you need to survive, then that person might as well have a gun to your head.

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Re: Hmm... response to ysabetwordsmith...
[info]ozarque
2008-10-09 12:45 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lillibet
2008-10-08 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Becca Levy, the Yale researcher cited, is the sister of a friend. It's a very small world.

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[info]dpolicar
2008-10-08 07:25 pm UTC (link)
I developed a new appreciation for this issue when I recently spent a few weeks in post-stroke rehab, as well as a profound appreciation for people who can provide assistance -- including assistance in some embarrassingly, not to say humiliatingly, intimate activities -- without making the recipient of that assistance feel diminished. Some of the people providing aid did not have that skill, or perhaps the interest/willingness, and the lack was enormously felt.

The language they use makes a lot of the difference, their bodyparl even more so.

Not that I was analyzing either too carefully at the time, admittedly.

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re: stroke rehab
[info]inthebeast
2008-10-08 09:20 pm UTC (link)
I had my stroke in April, got out of rehab in July, and even though I know exactly what you mean about the expectations of some of the staff, I really want to speak up for the rehab I got. They wheeled me into Fairmont Acute Rehab on a gurney the 14th of May. I walked out using a quad-cane on July 9th. I was uninsured and my Medi-Cal was pending the whole time. There were times when I didn't like the reaction when I needed help changing out of wet scrub pants, but the help was there. Also, in retrospect, I could have done better about following the steps they gave me. As soon as I got serious about doing that, my conditions got much better. Fairmont is a county facility, and I am so glad that I live in Alameda county!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: stroke rehab - [info]dpolicar, 2008-10-09 12:00 am UTC (Expand)
Dear and sweetie are used for the disabled too - [info]journeyrose, 2008-10-09 01:46 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Dear and sweetie are used for the disabled too - [info]dpolicar, 2008-10-09 02:15 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Dear and sweetie are used for the disabled too - [info]leora, 2008-10-10 01:05 am UTC (Expand)

[info]muffyjo
2008-10-08 07:35 pm UTC (link)
FWIW, large portions of my life were spent with my grandparents in a retirement community setting. My grandfather, a true southern gentleman to the core, called everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE - except my grandmother) daughter or son. He said if they were younger, they deserved it, if they were older, they were flattered.

In thinking back on that, I have to laugh. It seems a rather appropriate response to "sweetie" and "honey" which, I might add, is said to the men in the south and some parts of the midwest, all the time, but almost always by women.

I think that as a culture we've rather lost touch with how to show respect to strangers, in general. And how to avoid stereotypes, in specific. We live more and more through the people on the television set and how we see them react instead of the people in real life. Somehow we haven't figured out that on TV, they pick the way that solves the problem the least, gets the most laughs, and gets everyone into the worst trouble so they can keep the audience interested until next week. In real life, it's much better with less drama.

I do find myself falling into the "M'me" and "Sir" pattern, myself but I would never, ever, call someone I didn't know "sweetie".

(Reply to this)


[info]fjm
2008-10-08 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Have you seen this: http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/bitch-there-i-said-it/#comments

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[info]brynndragon
2008-10-08 08:00 pm UTC (link)
I've become convinced that I was raised in a barn in terms of manners - I didn't even learn "please" and "thank you" until I was taught at 16 by a boyfriend's mother. So it's good when I hear things like "I don't like it when people do $foo" because I very well might not know otherwise. Particularly the first name thing - it never occurred to me that this might be offensive. Although I generally use "sir" or "ma'am" for people whose names I don't know (if I use anything at all - like I said, I was raised in a barn).

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[info]dd_b
2008-10-08 09:17 pm UTC (link)
I was born and (somewhat later) entered the workforce at the perfect time, I think (for my preferences) -- all the nonsense about "formal titles" had just disappeared when I started working (1969). Nowhere I've worked, including trips representing my employers to quite a few states and three foreign countries, seemed to expect titles to be used in a person-to-person business relationship.

This is clearly contrary to the experience of some other people here, working during some of the same years. But that's what makes life interesting, right? (And my work experience doesn't include Japan or the Southern US other than Texas.)

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[info]leora
2008-10-08 10:54 pm UTC (link)
My first reaction to this was to be utterly surprised that this is common. When I think of people inappropriately using terms like "honey" or "sweetie" my first thought is elderly males toward younger women.

It is something I very much associate with the way that ekders speak, and is sometimes considered partially forgivable because they were raised in a much more sexist environment and habits are hard to break.

However, as I am not elderly myself, I would not be as aware of its usage toward elders.

After reading the comments, it is also something I associate with some female waitresses as well.

Although I did know someone who called ~everyone~ "babe".

I am generally with the people who dislike anyone using pet names/terms of endearment toward me unless we are actually close. And I would not use such terms even with most people I am close to. Certainly not with someone I didn't know or had primarily a professional relationship with.

I generally do not use such terms with children either, because I hated them as a child too. I don't mind them if they're actually being used to show affection/caring from someone I am close to, but they were more often used by someone who acted condescendingly.

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[info]cathyr19355
2008-10-09 05:05 am UTC (link)
Actually, a lot of middle-aged lower class women (a lot of whom seem to work as diner waitresses or in beauty parlors, for some reason), call *everyone* "honey" or "sweetie," as you noted yourself. That's the usage I associate with that particular verbal habit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mmegaera
2008-10-09 02:19 am UTC (link)
I'm nearly fifty, and I don't think I will ever get used to being called "ma'am." My first reaction to it is to want to glance over my shoulder to see who they're really addressing.

A grocery chain here, when it first instituted its "club card," apparently instructed its checkers to address anyone whose name they had access to (via plastic or personal check or whatever) by Mr./Mrs. (not Ms.) Lastname. The first time I got addressed as Mrs. Lastname (real name omitted in a public forum), I said, very politely, oh, I'm sorry, that's my mother. Apparently the word got around, because no one in that store ever did that to me again [g].

I hate honorifics, anyway, just on general principles. I'm a Ms., having been divorced and gone back to my maiden name (another phrase that really needs to be changed), but my last name has enough Ss in it that combining it with Ms. can literally tie your tongue in knots. The whole Miss/Ma'am thing is just icky, too, but I'm not all that comfortable with strangers using my first name, either. Which leaves, "hey, you," I guess. Not exactly charming, either.

BTW, I was raised in California by two expatriate Southerners, and I grew up addressing my elders as sir and ma'am, so I really have no grounds to complain. Drat it.

(Reply to this)

thoughts on terms of address
[info]dteleki
2008-10-09 02:45 am UTC (link)
It's funny what catches different people's attention. What struck me especially was this:

My dentist's staff all address me as "Dr. Elgin" -- which always startles the other patients in the waitingroom who've been sitting there thinking of me as a little old lady with bad hair.

As if growing old makes people's doctorates evaporate somehow!

Although I think I can reconstruct the "reasoning", such as it is:
. "Doctor" means "medical doctor". Ph.D. is not a real doctor.
. People are Doctors or patients. The same person can't be both.
. The little old lady with bad hair is waiting for a Doctor.
. Therefore she's a patient.
. Therefore she isn't a Doctor.

Though the funny thing is, to me our blog-host isn't "Dr. Elgin" either. Because my interactions with her started with this blog, and have been almost entirely through this blog, my "terms of address habit for the internet" has kicked in:
. your username is your name, and it is the ONLY name you have.
So to me, she is "ozarque", or better yet [info]ozarque, and NOTHING else.

I think that I'd have the courtesy to say "Dr. Elgin" in person. But the first few times, at least, I'd be likely to slip into addressing her, in person, as "ozarque"; I'm wondering... if I did that, would that seem peculiar to commenters here who were physically present? Would it seem peculiar to you, [info]ozarque? Would anyone here be likely to do similarly?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: thoughts on terms of address
[info]leora
2008-10-10 01:02 am UTC (link)
I've met people in person who I primarily know and first met through LJ. I usually ask them how they prefer to be addressed. I certainly do feel a tendency to use their usernames, since that is how I think of them in my head. Often I can't remember their "real names". But I do try to use what they prefer in person. Many people are okay with their usernames being used in person. Often I end up using either at times. Although I have a long habit of avoiding using names whenever possible. I almost never call anyone by any name. I just speak to them. I think I developed it because remembering names is hard for me (and certainly harder when I never use them, I know). But it means that the issue rarely comes up for me, and I have a lot of methods for finding ways to make it clear I am talking to someone without needing to say their name.

When I do meet people I know primarily from the internet, I do expect them to have a tendency to use whichever username I use on the forum I know them from. I've also gotten mail (actual physical mail with paper involved, not the electronic kind) addressed to my username.

How I feel about the extent to which a username is effectively someone's name depends on the forum and the what the culture there seems to be.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cathyr19355
2008-10-09 05:03 am UTC (link)
And I can't think of any non-awkward name for it.

I think the word you might be groping for is "patronizing".

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all the differences
[info]maggieno
2008-10-09 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Reading all the responses has been a fascinating exercise. All the differences in experience and preferences!

Just to add to the stew:

My Hungarian friends would sigh over times when their native language tendencies got them in trouble over intimacies of names. Many eastern European languages have many affectionate suffixes for names, and many affectionate stand-alone terms, that are used with people. Yes, in many ways the languages can be very formal (i.e., personal pronouns are not used when referring to a parent), but the affectionate terms are used at times and in ways -- and for both sexes -- that would appall even casual American English speakers.

In my background, perhaps because I come from a family with a GP/surgeon, the honorific "Doctor" was never used for anyone but a medical doctor. When I was very young, in mid-century, I would even hear rumbles over calling a vet Dr. This even in an immigrant family that would have hyperventilated with happiness over one of the kids getting her PhD.

In my adult life, I have found it socially difficult to insist on the honorifics I grew up with. None of my neighbors use Mr. or Mrs., let alone Miss or Ms, with children. A respectful tone of voice, and of attention to the adult, it expected and enforced, but names? First names for everyone save the very old.

I wouldn't mind being called Mrs., being of an age when most people have been married and knowing that Frau/Senora and such are age-related terms as much as terms of marital status. However, all too often the term brings an expectation of marriage and assumptions that the surname is not my natal surname, which is irritating. As children, my family called the female half of familiar adult couples as Mrs. Louella, Mrs. Pat, although neighbors were Mrs. Krieger, Mrs. Anderson. I haven't found the first comfortable, and, as mentioned, the second doesn't seem to fit in socially.

Although I did not grow up with Sir or madam, as one poster mentioned, M'am still has me looking over my shoulder for some other adult.... It's not a new reaction, too. I said "sir" when a waitress at Hojo's in the mid/late 60s, but all the WW2 menfolk I waited on objected mightily and for the same reasons you hear from today's boomers.

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Honorifics
(Anonymous)
2008-10-09 03:53 pm UTC (link)
It still surprises me when people object to either using or being addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am." To me, those are the proper modes of address for someone in a position of authority or a person whom one is "serving" in a commercial capacity (as a sales clerk, for instance). My father, a CPA, always addressed his clients as "Sir" or "Ma'am." He grew up in Norfolk, Virginia, and we lived there throughout my childhood. I'm sorry children aren't often taught to speak to adults that way anymore.

As a Navy wife, I was used to hearing those honorifics for 30 years and felt comfortable with them. We still get addressed by them (as retirees) at military health facilities. I find them comforting. After 30 years of putting up with deployments and frequent moves, I've earned it, durn burn it. :) The clerks at the supermarkets address me as "Mrs. (last name)," which I like.

Being called by my first name by strangers drives me nuts -- esp. those blasted telephone solicitors. The faux intimacy in that situation is very grating.

I don't consider my online acquaintances as strangers for that purpose, though. All first names unless it's a business communication with a new correspondent.

At my day job, on the other hand, everybody is on a first-name basis, regardless of position. This is a state government office. If we ran into one of the elected officials, of course it would be a different matter; we would say "Senator Jones" or whatever -- but that hardly ever happens. They stay in their own building across the street or in the State House and don't visit our offices.

In this area, older people, mainly women, often call others "hon" indiscriminately. That doesn't bother me; I think it's kind of cute.

Margaret

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OT
[info]shakatany
2008-10-09 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I thought this might interest you - there's a new recipe for No-Knead Whole-Wheat Bread at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08mini.html?ref=dining

Shakatany

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