ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2008-07-17 08:40:00
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Verbal self-defense; two "hostile language" interaction questions...
A while ago, in the context of a discussion of the negative communication patterns I call "hostile language"
[at http://ozarque.livejournal.com/533489.html ],
[info]brynndragon commented:

"I am reminded of an instance where a comment meant to be inclusive was interpreted by a friend to exclude her, which resulted in significant hurt feelings. When she told me of this I apologized profusely -- attempting to tell her she was wrong about the meaning of my comment would do nothing to change that plain fact (ETA: that her feelings were hurt) and would certainly lead to even more pain. Intentions are all well and good, but when it comes to communication sometimes you will fail to accomplish them -- that's life without telepathy for ya. My question is, what should you do when you've discovered such a failure of intention? My response was the best I could do at the time, but I'm wondering if there's a better one."

And [info]babalon_it added:

"I wonder about this as well. Does it work to apologize and then ask: 'How could I have phrased it better, given my intention to be [helpful,inclusive, whatever]?' "


I wasn't there for the interaction between [info]brynndragon and the friend, which means that I have no idea about the tune the words were set to, the tone of voice, or any of the other body language. That's a problem, always, because the nonverbal communication can make a huge difference. That said, here's my opinion.

The best thing to do in a case like this is to simply say, as sincerely and warmly as possible, "I'm so sorry I hurt you." Period. As [info]brynndragon accurately points out, it's a mistake to say "That wasn't what I meant at all; you misunderstood me." For a listener already feeling under attack, that's going to carry a metamessage along the lines of, "I'm not in the wrong here, you are. You've made a mistake. You weren't capable of understanding what I said to you." The effect of that metamessage -- even if it's entirely in the listener's imagination and you mean nothing of the kind -- is to cancel your apology. Just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" and wait for the listener's response before saying anything more.

[info]babalon_it's question was:
"Does it work to apologize and then ask: 'How could I have phrased it better, given my intention to be [helpful,inclusive, whatever]?' "

The first problem with this tactic is that "given my intention to be X" presupposes that the listener has misunderstood, has made a mistake, and is wrong. Like "That wasn't what I meant at all; you misunderstood me," its real-world effect is to cancel your apology. The second problem is that it puts the listener on the spot, handing the listener an unexpected responsibility for improving the wording of whatever you said that was misinterpreted. The most likely response to that question is: "For crying out loud, how am I supposed to know what you should have said, when you didn't even know that yourself?"

It's hard to just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" when your personal conviction is that you're innocent, that you meant no harm, and that this person has twisted your words and distorted your meaning. But if the relationship matters to you, it's the wisest strategy.


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[info]starcat_jewel
2008-07-17 02:01 pm UTC (link)
I resist the notion that there's nothing I can do to keep from making that same mistake again, which is the way what you're saying comes across to me. How am I supposed to learn how to do better if I can't even ask what I did wrong?

(This is a bit of a sore spot for me, because my parents used to pull that shit on me all the time. What I did was wrong; why was it wrong; well, I should just KNOW that, because that's what all decent people know without being told! No, I'm not a mindreader, and I submit that it's as unfair to ask me to be one in the area of language as it is in the area of behavior.)

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Response to starcat_jewel...
[info]ozarque
2008-07-17 02:19 pm UTC (link)
You are quite right to resist that notion, and to ask how you can learn to do better if you can't ask what you've done wrong. You're right, absolutely, to say that you can't be expected to just know that information; no one should demand that of you.

My suggestion is just that it's best to first establish that you're sorry you've caused your listener pain, and to postpone the discussion of what caused the communication breakdown until after that's done. It might mean waiting until the next time you were together with that person, and that's all right. You're more likely to find out what's really behind the misunderstanding when the atmosphere is less emotionally charged.

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Re: Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-07-17 03:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to starcat_jewel... and to archangelbeth... - [info]ozarque, 2008-07-17 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]janetmiles
2008-07-17 02:27 pm UTC (link)
I may be misinterpreting, but I don't think [info]ozarque is suggesting there is nothing you (generic) can do to avoid making the same mistake later, but rather that the time to inquire is perhaps not immediately after making the mistake.

She wrote, "Just say 'I'm so sorry I hurt you' and wait for the listener's response before saying anything more."

That is, first, apologize, sincerely, and stop there. Let the other person respond. Depending on the nature of the hurt, s/he may be able to accept the apology and move on immediately, perhaps to a discussion of what went wrong. On the other hand, if you (to embrace and extend some phrases from alt.polyamory) not only stepped on his/her tomato patch but actually set off a land mine, it may be better to drop it completely for now and move on to another topic.

However, later, after the hurt has eased, you may be able to ask if you can talk about what caused the hurt, explain what you meant, and ask if there was something you could have said or done differently.

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[info]lovecraftienne
2008-07-17 02:05 pm UTC (link)
See, for me, there's no cognitive dissonance in saying "I'm sorry that I hurt you", and feeling personally that I didn't do anything wrong as such. I can hurt people even when I don't mean to - I could step on someone's foot, for example - and while I've done nothing wrong, in the sense of "acting intentionally against someone's interest", I've still hurt someone, and deserve to apologise.

Sorting out the misunderstanding can come well after I've ensured that the person I've hurt has heard (if they can) my apology, and they feel that I've heard and understood the distress I've caused, whatever it may be. When we're both ready, we can have a look at whatever it was and see how to avoid it. Even then, to me, the onus is on the hurter to do the work: not, "How could I do better?" but "Would it be better if I...?"

Key, also, is to avoid the weasel words, "I'm sorry you felt hurt by that" - because it seems to imply that there's something improper about the feeling of hurtness.

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Response to lovecraftienne...
[info]ozarque
2008-07-17 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Well said. I would only add that it's also good to avoid pseudo-apologies like "If what I said hurt you, I'm so sorry."

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Re: Response to lovecraftienne...
[info]indefatigable42
2008-07-17 02:44 pm UTC (link)
Key, also, is to avoid the weasel words, "I'm sorry you felt hurt by that" - because it seems to imply that there's something improper about the feeling of hurtness.

I've been on the receiving end of that before. It made me think that the only thing he was sorry for was getting in trouble.

An apology, even a heartfelt one, doesn't erase hurt feelings. It also shouldn't imply that all the blame for hurt feelings lies with the person who felt hurt. This person seemed to think his opinion was blameless, and was unwilling to consider that there actually was something offensive in his words. If I'd thought he was willing to hear my feelings on why he'd offended me, I would have been more open to his apology.

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Re: Response to lovecraftienne... - [info]voxwoman, 2008-07-17 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]alice_q
2008-07-17 02:14 pm UTC (link)
I like to think that I would always start with "I'm so sorry! I didn't make myself clear". I also like to think that I would leave it at that, unless the other person somehow actively invited clarification.

(Reply to this)

I think that this works extremely well for comments
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-07-17 02:20 pm UTC (link)
I have gone back and edited to explain myself or even compltely changed a main journal entry when it's become evident that what I said was unclear or hurtful.

However, that does not change the fact that the apology direct, "I am so sorry I hurt you" is still the best thing to do.

Along those lines, one of the WORST things someone can do is to write "I apologize IF I offended anyone". This makes it seem as if the offense was trivial or only perceived by the person taking offense. This "apology" is often resorted to by celebrities and media personalitites.

Edited at 2008-07-17 02:38 pm UTC

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[info]griffen
2008-07-17 02:37 pm UTC (link)
It's hard to just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" when your personal conviction is that you're innocent, that you meant no harm, and that this person has twisted your words and distorted your meaning. But if the relationship matters to you, it's the wisest strategy.

My problem with this is that it feels like I'm lying to say "I'm sorry" when I'm not, and that includes the situation that you've just described. I don't say "I'm sorry" unless I know I screwed up. If I didn't screw up, I'm not going to lie and say I did. Any thoughts on that?

Edited to add: If they misinterpreted what I said, that cannot be my fault. It goes against everything I believe in to take responsibility for something that was not my fault. I cannot reconcile apologizing to someone when they're the one who made the mistake/screwed up. They should be apologizing to *me*.

Edited at 2008-07-17 02:39 pm UTC

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[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-07-17 03:01 pm UTC (link)
"I screwed up" and "I'm sorry" are not actually synonyms.

We say, "I'm sorry your mother died", after all, and that is not an admission of murder or negligence, just of compassion.

This world is full of unintended consequences. I’m dancing, and you walk silently into the room behind me, and I spin and hit you in the face. No fault, I didn’t know you were there, you didn’t know I was about to spin. But your face and my hand are now bruised.

“I’m sorry,” we say to each other, because we didn’t mean to be a (partial) cause of pain. Because we care that the other is suffering pain.

Happily, this time, we can avoid the “mea culpa”, which “I’m sorry” can also mean.

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(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]takumashii, 2008-07-17 03:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 09:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-07-17 03:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wyld_dandelyon, 2008-07-17 03:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wyld_dandelyon, 2008-07-17 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 10:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]slcronin, 2008-07-17 03:48 pm UTC (Expand)
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(no subject) - [info]wyld_dandelyon, 2008-07-17 09:52 pm UTC (Expand)
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(no subject) - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-07-18 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dulcinbradbury
2008-07-17 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I admit to having a hard time with this one too. However, if I step on someone's foot, I will apologize. I certainly didn't *mean* to step on their foot. So why is it so hard to apologize for an unintended slight or such? Why is that different? I don't know why it is, but, it certainly seems to be ingrained in us that it is. And I suspect it's something we learn.

I was once doing some laundry where I was filling the washer & scrubbing a stain with some soap directly. My three-year-old nephew was standing nearby & I accidentally had a bit of soapy water splash. It got in his eyes and he started crying. It was just soap -- no bleach or anything that could cause real damage. I told him I was sorry while his mom calmed him down. When he was calmer he looked at me and said "Not NICE M____!"

His mother then chided him that it was an accident & that it was unintentional. I'd apologized and he shouldn't lash out at me.

I think, from the perspective of someone who perceives an offense, there's the fact that if someone *says* that it was unintentional, you can't know it was unintentional. I also think it depends on how the situation is handled. If you say to someone, "You know, I felt really excluded when you said/did ____" and you're calm and willing to have a dialog about it, you won't come off as attacking. I think the other person can say "Oh, I'm so sorry! That wasn't my intent at all, I never wanted to exclude you." Somehow, without more explanation, it seems that it could lead to more misunderstandings. Maybe you WERE trying to exclude the person. Maybe you were trying to keep them OUT of a bad social situation. Or maybe you needed to talk to so-in-so about something private.

But unless BOTH people are willing to come in and really listen & not get defensive, it just won't work.

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[info]victoriacatlady
2008-07-18 06:52 pm UTC (link)
Edited to add: If they misinterpreted what I said, that cannot be my fault. It goes against everything I believe in to take responsibility for something that was not my fault. I cannot reconcile apologizing to someone when they're the one who made the mistake/screwed up. They should be apologizing to *me*.

What if what you said was -- unintentionally! -- ambiguous? I'm going to use a real example of ambiguity from a newsgroup posting many years ago. These are not the exact words, of course, but this is essentially what happened. The ISP here is a nonprofit one staffed mostly by volunteers.

X (a user of the ISP): "Is anyone awake there? I'm having problems."

Y (a volunteer who worked at the ISP): "How dare you speak to us like that? 'Is anyone awake,' indeed. We're volunteers working our asses off, and you talk like we don't know our [you-know-whats] from a hole in the ground."

Me: "Looking at X's posting, I see he sent it at two in the morning. Maybe he meant it the way you read it, or maybe he literally meant, 'Is anyone there awake at this time of night?'"

Y (a bit sheepishly): "Oops. Okay, I still think X meant it the way I thought, but I see he could have meant it the other way, too."


Now, I think Y was too quick to take offense -- but his reading was a legitimately possible one for the words X used. He could have read it again, deliberately looking for a way that the posting could have been written without insult.

But I also think that X's words were ambiguous, and if Y could have reread them looking for inoffensiveness, then equally X could also have reread them before sending the posting, looking for possible offensiveness. I don't mean to say that the blame is necessarily evenly divided -- actually I'd like to avoid blame here as much as possible -- but there is a certain amount of responsibility on both sides.

A point that I find worth keeping in mind is that screwing up is not something that is done by either one person or the other but not both. Very often both people have screwed up a little, even if one of them has screwed up much more than the other one.

I don't remember what X said -- maybe nothing, at least publicly -- but what I would have said in his place was something like, "I'm sorry what I wrote was unclear. I didn't read it carefully enough to see that it could easily be taken that way. I'm sorry I hurt you with my carelessness." (Ozarque, is that still an inferior response, do you think? If so, why? And does it make a difference that this exchange was in writing rather than spoken? To my mind, it works well because I'm taking specific responsibility -- but it might not be as good in person.)

I don't find it easy to apologize or to take responsibility for someone else's feelings being hurt. But I've found it tactically sound, as well as ethically honourable, to look and feel carefully, search for ways in which I might really be responsible -- as well as ways in which the other person is mistaken and I did nothing wrong -- and then to respond taking all the responsibility I can justify as having some truth to it. It gets a bit easier with practice.

No, I don't take responsibility for something that was not my fault. What I do is I try -- without beating myself up -- to find ways in which it was a little bit my fault and then acknowledge them. Tactically, as I've said, it works really well. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-07-17 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Although I see the point that the already hurt and defensive person shouldn't be given the message "you were at fault for thinking this" because that is likely to hurt them further, I also see value in finding a way to communicate “I meant to be inclusive of you". And if your body language wasn’t sufficient to prevent that particular miscommunication in the first place, then you can’t count on your body language sending an inclusive message now.

As to why I think this, let me give two examples:

If somebody wanted to include me, but screwed up and somehow didn't let me know that they wanted to include me, If I know they meant to include me, I can then reconsider future interactions in light of what happened, and in light of the reassurance that they had wanted to include me. If I can analyze what was or wasn’t said (or done) that led to the misunderstanding, I can further refine my understanding of how to interpret that person’s communication style.

In the alternate scenario, one where somebody wanted to exclude me, but didn't want to hurt my feelings, and in the absence of extenuating circumstances (a third friend needed privacy to talk about something personal, for instance) I would definitely assume that the thing, or type of thing, I had been excluded from was probably at a boundary of some sort.

Without knowing that the person meant to include me, a sincere “Sorry” with no other information reassures me of the person’s good will toward me, but also leaves me rethinking my understanding of the relationship, rather than (or in addition to) rethinking my understanding of their conversational style.

So, to me, that added bit of information is very important, though it is tricky to find a way to convey it that doesn’t add hurt to hurt.

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[info]gement
2008-07-17 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. I am actively uncomfortable with the miscommunications inherent in not offering any more context.

A: "You just insulted everything I stand for."

B: "I'm so sorry I hurt you."

(My internal read of B: "I'm sorry you're in pain, but I stand by what I said as you understood it, and that hurt is a necessary consequence." I would light into person B pretty badly.)

A: "You just insulted everything I stand for."

B: "I'm so sorry I hurt you. I respect what you stand for."

(My internal read of B: "I'm sorry you're in pain. There has apparently been a misunderstanding, and here is a statement of the belief I would like you to believe of me so we can continue from here based in what I actually think." Alternately, "I'm sorry you're in pain. I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance where I can't see that my first statement and my second statement are in conflict." Either way, I'll probably go with, "If you respect it, how can you say blah blah blah..." and we'll either discover a real problem or get it straightened out.)

I do believe it's entirely appropriate to wait a breath for the hurt party to steer the conversation, but unless some brilliant revelation or deep emotional venting comes out in A's next statement, my very next statement as B will probably be, "I seem to have said that all wrong. [Some contextually appropriate variant of "Does this work better" or "What would work better" or if I am very confident I can see my error "Rephrased statement that hopefully fixes it."]."

I do not feel "I said that all wrong" is a dishonest assessment in most cases, even if it would have worked fine with someone else, because the point of language is to transmit understanding from one person to another. If the other person has not understood, I have not successfully communicated. Yes, they can be lousy listeners, but I'll happily own my half. [Exceptions for dealing with crazy-makers with a known track record of bizarre distortions.]

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(no subject) - [info]cindygerb, 2008-07-17 05:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gwillen, 2008-07-17 05:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gement, 2008-07-17 10:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wyld_dandelyon, 2008-07-18 03:59 pm UTC (Expand)
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[info]ladyvorkosigan
2008-07-17 05:52 pm UTC (link)
If somebody wanted to include me, but screwed up and somehow didn't let me know that they wanted to include me, If I know they meant to include me, I can then reconsider future interactions in light of what happened, and in light of the reassurance that they had wanted to include me. If I can analyze what was or wasn’t said (or done) that led to the misunderstanding, I can further refine my understanding of how to interpret that person’s communication style.

And, in addition, it's also just nice to know that someone didn't mean to exclude you. Because even if they're sorry that doesn't take away the sting of feeling like they didn't want you there; I, at least, would want to know that I misinterpreted that and they did.

I see the problem with it looking like you're disclaiming responsibility and blaming the other person, though. Maybe something like "Oh, I'm so sorry! I can't believe how thoughtless I was in phrasing it that way. Of course I wanted you there and and meant to say X."

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rahaeli
2008-07-17 03:40 pm UTC (link)
The effect of that metamessage -- even if it's entirely in the listener's imagination and you mean nothing of the kind -- is to cancel your apology. Just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" and wait for the listener's response before saying anything more.

While I think that's the best option for face-to-face interactions, I think that -- online -- the lack of body-language cues and additional context can lead to more hurt feelings with this technique sometimes. To me, and to a lot of people I know, an LJ comment just saying "I'm so sorry I hurt you", with no further elaboration -- especially if the hurt person has typed out a substantial comment either expressing or explaining their upset -- would come across as shallow or insincere, like it carries an undercurrent of "I am ignoring your points and your feelings and shutting down this discussion channel". (It's absolutely better than reacting with rage or defensiveness, though!) Because online, you don't have the cues to indicate sincerity and warmth, an apology with no further information can be a closed door rather than an outstretched hand.

I've found that -- to avoid giving the metamessage you describe -- I've had really good results with something along the lines of: "I'm very sorry I hurt you by being thoughtless. What I intended by [thing I think was misunderstood] was [explanation of intention, in language as neutral as possible]. I think that what I accidentally communicated was [summary of what I think was how I was misunderstood]. I'm very sorry that I hurt you with my mistake, and I hope that I haven't compounded the mistake here with more misunderstanding and hurt you further -- and if I have, I apologize. I'd love to talk about this further with you if you'd like, but either way, I am sorry."

I always have to be really, really careful to make sure that there's no defensiveness or "but clearly if you'd been smarter you would have seen what I meant" creeping in -- and it's hard to nail the right tone of calm sincere apology when I'm explaining like that -- but for an LJ comment conversation, it keeps the line of communication open and demonstrates a good-faith commitment to healing the conversational rupture, without shifting blame to the other party.

I suspect that this technique only works for me because I have a really, really high sensitivity for looking at a vituperative comment in response to something I've said and being able to pick out the things I think the commenter is reacting to, though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to rahaeli...
[info]ozarque
2008-07-17 04:08 pm UTC (link)
You are of course right about the difference between spoken language -- face to face language -- and written language. That's why I said "listener." [Although that wasn't clear enough, as it happens, since it would include telephone conversations; still, on the phone you do have the information from intonation and tone of voice.]

Dealing with communication breakdowns that happen online is a whole different territory, and it's not a territory where I'm an expert.

Thank you for your comment.

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Re: Response to rahaeli... - [info]rahaeli, 2008-07-17 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]hilleviw
2008-07-17 04:19 pm UTC (link)
It's hard for me to write about this without a concrete example, so...I'm disabled. Walk with a cane. Bobbing up and down (sitting & rising repeatedly) is not only painful for me, it's injurious. So when I was taking an adult RE class at my local Unitarian Universalist church (a denomination which explicitly aims for inclusivity) I was disappointed, and yes, hurt, when we were repeatedly asked to rise and set. Especially as, in a group of twenty or so, there were three people with canes, and one in a wheelchair. There's a part of me that wonders what people think? "Oh look, 20% of the group aren't able bodied, I'll ask them to stand." I mean, to me that's obviously problematic, but apparently not so for everyone. So when, at the end of the session, we were asked for feedback (it's a curriculum currently under development) I commented that I don't want anyone to forfeit something which profoundly enriches the experience for them on account of because I've got crap knees, but that the bobbing up and down does injure me and being asked to do it repeatedly makes me conscious of my deficiencies, excludes me, and saddens me. Our minister was leading the session and he's a bright lad, catches on quickly. Realized that my feedback applied to more than just the curriculum. Took me aside after, and asked if it was okay to discuss the issue further. I suggested that sometime he should try being the only person seated in a group of 20 or more and see how it feels. The next time there was an opportunity, I saw him do this, and and I could see it causing a little epiphany. Then over the coming weeks I heard him test variations on "please rise" and then look to me and other disabled congregants for our responses - to see whether the set of our shoulders changed, or we looked resigned, or we looked as if it was fine. After a couple of months he's settled on "please rise in body or spirit" and it does feel very different.

I suppose this is my long winded way of saying that the unvarnished "I'm sorry" is a good start. My hackles tend to rise if the hurtful thing then gets repeated unchanged though, and the apology loses credibility. If I say something which is hurtful, and I'm told it's hurtful, even if I don't understand what makes it hurtful I have to not repeat it. Ideally, too, I give it some thought in order to figure out why it's hurtful.

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[info]griffen
2008-07-17 04:26 pm UTC (link)
At our UU church, the phrasing is "Please stand as you are willing and able." It acknowledges that although many may be willing to stand, some may not be able to stand, and that's okay.

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(no subject) - [info]hilleviw, 2008-07-17 04:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2008-07-17 09:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]annbonny, 2008-07-18 01:53 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rosalux, 2008-07-17 05:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]micheinnz, 2008-07-17 09:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to hilleviw... - [info]ozarque, 2008-07-17 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to hilleviw... - [info]hilleviw, 2008-07-17 05:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to hilleviw... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-07-17 06:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sapience, 2008-07-17 07:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]miz_geek, 2008-07-18 12:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-07-17 04:25 pm UTC (link)
I LOVE "Please rise in body or spirit" !!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hilleviw
2008-07-17 04:34 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I think Rev. Chris did really well with this. It includes everyone in the activity and removes the issue of able/unable.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-07-17 04:28 pm UTC (link)
(Heather)

For general interactions with friends and acquaintances, I would agree with this, however, for someone who is close to you that does this regularly, I'm not sure this is the right response.

My husband tends to be a very contrary person and takes things that anyone says in negative ways frequently. Because I am his wife, I will call him on this and it has, over the years, improved his ability to communicate with others and for us to communicate as well. The immediate feedback for him on his reaction to others is important in allowing him to recognize tones that are being used and body language that people are employing. With the passage of time, these things fade and the ability to assess what triggered the feeling is reduced, making the discussion of his reaction less meaningful.

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[info]cindygerb
2008-07-17 05:03 pm UTC (link)
This concept is very useful to me. The desire to explain myself when things go wrong is incredibly strong, and I need this kind of thing to show me how I can communicate better. Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to cindygerb...
[info]ozarque
2008-07-20 06:28 pm UTC (link)
You're most welcome, and thank you in return for your comments.

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when you want to be sure they know you are not admitting fault
[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-07-17 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Somewhere above, I asked griffen what they do say when they accidentally hurt someone, and how well it works.

I really am serious about this question. What else can you say in this kind of situation, without sounding distant, awkward, or insincere, if you want to avoid the ambiguity regarding guilt that is inherent in “I’m sorry” (i.e. if you do not want someone assuming your words mean you are admitting fault).

I have friends who sometimes say things like “My back pain isn’t your fault, why should you be sorry?” and who understand when I clarify, “This is an “I care” sorry, not a “mea culpa” sorry.”

But often you don’t get that question from people whose first reaction is that “I’m sorry” means “I’m guilty”. Worse, later they may not remember your actual words, just their interpretation of the words’ meaning. They are certain you admitted guilt, and too often will tell everyone else you’re guilty.

When you are dealing with someone who you know has a tendency to place blame, or who has a motive to want to place blame, it would be nice to have something to say that conveys you do care, and that you regret their pain, but that is much harder to misinterpret as an admission of fault/guilt. (I won't say impossible, because sometimes people hear what they already believe no matter what you say or how you say it.)

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graciousness
[info]sapience
2008-07-17 07:58 pm UTC (link)
I have friends who sometimes say things like "My back pain isn’t your fault, why should you be sorry?" and who understand when I clarify, "This is an "I care" sorry, not a "mea culpa" sorry."

In my mind, this is a matter of graciousness, and it's something I struggle with. For me, it is associated with the difficulties I have accepting a compliment (particularly if it is unexpected, or at odds with negative feedback I have received in the past) or responding appropriately to a gift (particularly when I do not like the gift, or when it is from someone I am not close to).

I suppose this is a tangent to the original discussion, but it's something I would appreciate hearing from others about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: when you want to be sure they know you are not admitting fault - [info]annbonny, 2008-07-18 01:58 am UTC (Expand)
Re: when you want to be sure they know you are not admitting fault - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-07-18 07:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: when you want to be sure they know you are not admitting fault - [info]wyld_dandelyon, 2008-07-18 07:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: when you want to be sure they know you are not admitting fault - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-07-20 12:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]silversliver
2008-07-17 06:11 pm UTC (link)
What about, "I'm sorry that I hurt you. It was not my intent, but I can see where I was not clear in my meaning."

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[info]recovered_dream
2008-07-18 02:08 am UTC (link)
It's hard to just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" when your personal conviction is that you're innocent, that you meant no harm, and that this person has twisted your words and distorted your meaning. But if the relationship matters to you, it's the wisest strategy.

For me it isn't even about strategy, to apologize. I do try very hard not to hurt others. When I hurt someone without intent, I do feel the need to apologize. I think for me it goes back to the discussion about whether something is hostile based on intent or not... and rather like falling into a shelf and breaking a prized heirloom... it's an accident but the damage is done. I don't apologize for what I've said, usually, but rather "I'm sorry I hurt you when I said ___." At another time, if it's important, I'll try to clarify things.

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[info]tygerr
2008-07-19 06:24 pm UTC (link)
It's hard to just say "I'm so sorry I hurt you" .... But ... it's the wisest strategy.

Hmm. Possibly the least-bad of a series of poor options likely to be a no-win situation, maybe?

In my experience, the phrase you recommend is *also* likely to result in a fresh round of hurt feelings and anger, due to being interpreted along the lines of "I'm not sorry at all about what I said or how I said it, I only regret your hurt feelings"; i.e., "I wish you weren't so hypersensitive"--thereby setting up the exact set of metamessages you're trying to avoid.

I'm not sure there *are* any good answers here.

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[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-07-20 03:50 pm UTC (link)
There are no universally good answers. You have to pay attention to what you know of your friend, and how upset they are. I'm certainly not the expert Ozarque is as to what will work best most of the time with most people in our society, but I know there are exceptions to every rule.

Also, your personal speaking style, how you emphasize things, the "melody" of your voice, your facial expression, your body language, all these things affect how people interpret the words. For instance, stiffness could be read as not caring, or as discomfort at having hurt them.

Some people need their hurt acknowledged before they can start to get to a mental state where they can start to logically look at the situation that hurt them; others need to consider the logic before they can emotionally move past the hurt.

There's certainly no advice in this situation that's guaranteed to work for everyone, IMHO.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Response to tygerr... - [info]ozarque, 2008-07-20 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to tygerr... - [info]tygerr, 2008-07-20 06:50 pm UTC (Expand)

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