ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2008-05-12 09:54:00
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Linguistics; verbal self-defense; kids...
All the way back on March 10th, [info]elfwreck posted this comment:
"I'm annoyed that it seems that the only way to teach my child to defend herself from verbal bullies at school is to arm her with counter-attacks -- because even non-violent children don't often have the patience and tolerance to step away from a conflict directed at them. (And because children, unlike adults, don't necessarily stop when the conversation becomes pointless, and don't limit themselves to subtleties. The GASVD books don't have any advice about what to do when the verbal attacks consist of four kids in a circle saying 'you're stupid and fat and ugly and lazy.')"

And that has been worrying me ever since. [This is not [info]elfwreck's fault; I am by nature a worrier, and have had seventy-one years practice.] What I'd like to do here, as a first step toward a response to the comment, is post a brief excerpt from some guidelines on pp. 161-162 of The Gentle Art of Communicating with Kids. Just in case that might be helpful.


Excerpt


1. Always remember that your language behavior is the model that the youngsters you interact with use to learn their language behavior.

Often this won't be obvious on the surface. You may feel that the children around you are as different from you as rabbits are from seals. But if you're someone constantly present in their language environment, even children who "wouldn't be caught DEAD!" using your slang or wearing your clothes or otherwise copying you will still acquire your language strategies -- your methods for handling conflict, for getting your way, for persuading others, and so on. The child will also acquire your nonverbal communication system, which carries almost all the emotional information and does most of the communication work. This gives you an awesome power, both to help and to harm. Use it wisely.


2. Don't lecture children to teach them something; model it instead.

The temptation is always just to tell. It's quick and easy to say to a child, "What Bill just said to you was an example of a verbal attack pattern. Here's what you should say back...." It's quick and easy to say, "The reason you're having trouble communicating with your math teacher is because you're touch dominant and she's sight dominant. Here's how you fix it...." It's harder and slower to make sure your own language behavior models the principles and techniques the kids need to know -- and to give them plenty of opportunities to see you demonstrating those principles and techniques. It's also much more likely to succeed.

In emergencies, when speed is the most important thing and there's no time to worry about the niceties, you may have to just say "This is how you do it. Say this:......" When a child asks you a direct question about the way you communicate, you should answer with explicit instructions and explanation. But always remember that that's not how language learning happens, not for youngsters.

You never told your children, "This is how you make an English yes/no question: Take the first auxiliary verb and move it to the immediate left of the surface subject position in the sentence." They learned how yes/no questions are made by observing the examples all around them and using their innate ability to figure out the rule from the raw data. They learned it so well that they'll never have to think about it again. The best way to teach kids communication is to provide the data and let them work out the rules on their own, so that they will internalize them the same way they internalized all the other rules of their grammar.

###


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[info]dpolicar
2008-05-12 03:02 pm UTC (link)
So... how do you model for children the proper reactions to a mode of verbal attack that is not in general targeted at adults to begin with? Your kids are unlikely to see you in the situation of being surrounded by a circle of your peers saying "you're stupid and fat and ugly and lazy", after all.

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Response to dpolicar...
[info]ozarque
2008-05-12 03:49 pm UTC (link)
I will have to respectfully disagree in this case. There are many families where one person says to another, "You never could cook, you know" and another relative chimes in and says, "Right, it's just something you're no good at," and another one piles on with "You'd think that somebody with a college degree would at least be able to boil water!" and another one joins in with an anecdote about the worst meal she remembers having eaten that was cooked by the target, and so on ad infinitum. Children see this happen, and they pay attention, and they learn from it. I see no difference between these practices and the circle of kids saying "you're stupid and fat and ugly and lazy" other than that the grownups have a larger vocabulary.

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Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... continued... - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 06:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... continued... - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-05-14 12:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... continued... - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 02:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]tiferet, 2008-05-12 04:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]tiferet, 2008-05-12 05:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]aedifica, 2008-05-12 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]pperiwinkle, 2008-05-12 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 06:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... - [info]rosalux, 2008-05-12 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-14 12:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... continued... - [info]ziactrice, 2008-05-14 02:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... and to ataniell93... continued... - [info]dolmena, 2008-05-19 06:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]beckyzoole, 2008-05-13 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 03:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]beckyzoole, 2008-05-14 04:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 02:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-05-15 12:56 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wyld_dandelyon
2008-05-12 07:46 pm UTC (link)
If your kid is in need of some example, you could model it by putting it in the middle of a story. Depending on the kid, you could say it directly to them or you could say it to someone else where they will overhear. I would think that both the "this is what happened" story and the "I wish I'd had the presence of mind to respond by saying ____" story would work, and the latter might help them to know that everyone has experiences where they think of the right thing to say later. (I suspect for some kids, letting them "overhear" a phone conversation might work better than talking to them directly; then you're not invading their (mental) space; others would doubtless rather have a heart-to-heart chat. You, knowing your kid, could guess better than I which approach would work better.)

As an aside, I know a transgender woman who, while living in Kansas City, watched the TV preachers religiously, because she knew their words would be parroted at her by the Bible-pushers in the area. By watching them, she could come up with snappy come-backs (some even complete with Bible verse references), and practice them in her head, so when the reality occurred, she was ready.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 08:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2008-05-13 02:25 am UTC (Expand)

[info]pgdudda
2008-05-12 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Just to note an exception to the "just do it" rule (because there are always exceptions!): When the child in question has a disability or impairment that interferes with their ability to process linguistic data "normally". In such cases, explicit instruction may be necessary to cue the child on what to look for in their search for linguistic metadata. Two obvious examples would be autistic/ASD children and children with hearing impairments who do not use sign language as a primary medium of communication.

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[info]archangelbeth
2008-05-12 03:36 pm UTC (link)
This includes high-functioning maaaaybe-Asperger's kids (yes, it's autism spectrum, but it's so near and dear to my heart so I specifically point it out), who have to be told things like, "In the united states, personal space is generally about arm's length, so you need to make sure you're not crowding the other kids in your class."

Dealing with a kid who fringes on Asperger's can be challenging.

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Response to archangelbeth... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 03:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to archangelbeth... - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-05-12 04:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to archangelbeth... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 04:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to pgdudda....
[info]ozarque
2008-05-12 03:53 pm UTC (link)
You may very well be right. I've never had the opportunity to work with language-impaired children, which means that I'm not qualified to offer any opinion about whether explicit instruction is the way to go.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Response to pgdudda and to archangelbeth, continued...
[info]ozarque
2008-05-12 04:20 pm UTC (link)
I've re-read my responses to both of your comments, and am much afraid that I sound like a snarky academic poseur/poseuse of some kind. I don't mean either response that way. I really do mean that you may both be right, but that I'm not qualified to offer an opinion. I try to follow the professional literature on this topic -- I can't begin to read it all, obviously, but I do my best to read as much of it as possible. And I see experts who argue for explicit instruction and experts who argue against it. [The way there are experts in linguistics who argue for linguistic relativity and experts in linguistics who argue against it. A scholarly controversy, among people all of whom do appear to be qualified to state their opinions.] Without any "hands-on" experience of my own, I just don't have any way to even begin to know which experts are right.

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Re: Response to pgdudda and to archangelbeth, continued... - [info]tiferet, 2008-05-12 04:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda and to archangelbeth, continued... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 05:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda and to archangelbeth, continued... - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-05-12 05:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda and to archangelbeth, continued again... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-14 12:56 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]kelsied
2008-05-13 02:29 am UTC (link)
Even not language impaired kids. Growing up, I was on heavy medication that profoundly interfered with my ability to communicate and process incoming data at a high rate of speed. I understood, but it took me a longer time to process my experiences than is generally allowed in normal social situations (which are generally very quick-paced). The chance to rehearse effective tactics in a "safe" environment would have been an incredible boon....

I guess what gets to me about this is that in some situations, it's not enough to model good behavior as the victim of the attack. Adults also have to model good behavior as observers of attacks on others. That means that they need to be willing to start calling kids on unacceptable behavior, such as bullying.

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Yes. Absolutely. Yes. - (Anonymous), 2008-05-13 11:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Yes. Absolutely. Yes. - [info]rosalux, 2008-05-13 02:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gramina
2008-05-12 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I don't know a good "standardized" response to the verbal violence situation given as an example (and how I wishI did, and had known it a long time ago!) but I do know that there are *times* when it is helpful to be given a simple memorized phrase to use in critical situations.

My father-in-law is a verbal bully, and he and I have radically differing political perspectives. I had the opportunity -- for which I'm extremely grateful! -- to introduce my mother to him fairly early in my marrige, and he is sufficiently un-subtle that she was able to see his behavior patterns pretty clearly from a short encounter. Next time I was distressed and confused about how to manage his attempts to inveigle me into a political argument that, as a guest in his house and his daughter-in-law there was simply no way for me to win, I went to my mom for help.

She gave me the line, "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that." And she's right. If you repeat that *every single time*, with varying tone and pitch for the sake of variety, even the most stubborn (adult) verbal bully will eventually get *bored.* "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that." "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that." "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that." "I'm sorry, I don't care to discuss that." ad infinitum.

After one particularly unfortunate political event -- I don't recall which -- she also gave me the somewhat trickier "<patient, slightly amused, ever so slightly dismissive laugh> You really don't want me to talk about that. <very friendly smile>"

And I just plain practiced them -- on the phone with her, alone in the car, with my husband -- until I could get the intonation right even under stress.

And it worked. (Which is nice, because if I hadn't found a way to cope, one or other of my father-in-law or me was going to decide I simply could not go to his house, which would have been awkward; not because my husband is any fonder of his father than I am (long story) but because we were both fond of his junior half-siblings.)

So -- rote responses *can* be learned, if necessary; I just can't think of any response at all that would be useful with the kind of way-less-than-nuanced attack discussed above.

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[info]dpolicar
2008-05-12 04:55 pm UTC (link)
"
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<patient,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<i>"<patient, slightly amused, ever so slightly dismissive laugh> You really don't want me to talk about that. <very friendly smile>"</i>

Heh. I use this one a lot, but never when I actually want to end the conversation. Its primary effect in my discourse-circle is to elicit a series of "Do tell!" kinds of responses.

In dealing with family and other unseparables like your FiL, I've become rather fond of using a string of I'm-listening noises ("Oh?" "Mm." "Interesting!" etc.) for several minutes, followed by turning to somebody else and changing the subject. The string gets shorter each time.

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(no subject) - [info]vvvexation, 2008-05-13 03:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gramina, 2008-05-14 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]writerwench
2008-05-12 03:28 pm UTC (link)
That sort of taunting bullying is horribly familiar to my daughters, who are both highly intelligent but lacking in social confidence. My older sister also went through a phase (when we were children) of calling me 'big fat and stupid'... I really don't have a 100% effective and child-memorable defence to such bullying, other than suggesting to the child that (s)he reminds him/herself 'Stupid is as stupid does' while being reviled. Parental discussion afterwards of the event, and explanation that it is a vile thing that children usually are disciplined out of, is the best I've come up with.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2008-05-12 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Riposte #1: "I'm fat, but you're mean, and I can always lose weight."

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Response to idiotgrrl...
[info]ozarque
2008-05-12 04:00 pm UTC (link)
But that's a counterattack, you perceive -- a very clever counterattack, to be sure -- and one of [info]elfwrecks concerns was having no defense to offer a bullied child except counterattacks.

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Re: Response to idiotgrrl... - [info]pperiwinkle, 2008-05-12 06:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to idiotgrrl... - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-05-21 02:37 am UTC (Expand)
No, please!
[info]dawnd
2008-05-14 04:26 pm UTC (link)
*shudders* Sorry, that one is going to backfire. Because one obvious response is "Prove it!" Let's not even get into the damage done by starting kids on dieting behavior at younger and younger ages. Frankly, I think it's easier to become "not mean" than to become "thin" if your genetics don't support it.

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[info]whatthehay
2008-05-12 03:41 pm UTC (link)
I was always the kid that was being called names. I liked to read. I was fairly smart. I was on an anti-convulsant for epilespy that made me sluggish and sleepy. And I was fat.

I would say, "Daddy, why do the kids hate me so much? Why do they always call me names?" and he told me that they just wanted to get a reaction out of me and if I refused to react they would get bored and leave me alone.

That did work, but the price was high. However, fighting back was worse since I was inept at it.

So, I've always thought of myself as a turtle when around people like that. Luckily, since I was about 30 or so, my self-esteem raised (for no reason I could put my finger on) and didn't give a rat's ass what people thought of me anymore. Well, except my mother-in-law. I really want her to think well of me. :-) She's great.

I don't know if there are any better or worse answers for tormented children. Some can fight and some can't. My childhood was hell, but it's over and I'm ok.

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[info]rosalux
2008-05-12 07:16 pm UTC (link)
It's not just some kids can fight and some can't - it's that different groups of kids react differently to different reactions, too. You could have been a lot more successful with the turtle routine in another area, or a different school, or even with different intervention from adults.

When I was in middle school we moved from a place where the kids were mean but you could fight back verbally (also a big enough school that you could find a group of friends of your own freak group, no matter what). Kids in that school did not hit, unless they were ready to totally sever relationships.

We moved to a place where fighting back verbally was seen as acting better than the other kids, escalating things, and the correct way to fight back (the one that made people like you more) was to fight with your fists. I was completely out of my league. I ended that school year with not one person still speaking to me, and it was a small enough town that that covered every kid in town my age, except some girls in my neighborhood who were only in town in the summer and went to school in another state.

And then I made a friend who hit people *for* me, and taught me how to shrug off verbal attacks in a de-escalating way, and it got better.

But I wouldn't teach my kid to hit as a general rule (hell, in the middle schools around here, fists can escalate to guns).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]leora, 2008-05-12 10:19 pm UTC (Expand)
danger in numbers - [info]maggieno, 2008-05-12 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 02:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gramina, 2008-05-14 03:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-05-21 02:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2008-05-13 02:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]whatthehay, 2008-05-13 03:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2008-05-13 01:22 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to kelsied... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-14 01:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to kelsied... - [info]kelsied, 2008-05-15 01:21 am UTC (Expand)

[info]voxwoman
2008-05-12 03:53 pm UTC (link)
About point #1: Sometimes, you're not aware of your own verbal or non-verbal methods until you see them mirrored in your children, to your personal horror.

About point #2: I probably didn't learn any effective means of countering attacks from other children when I was a child (and was probably the reason I felt the need to lock myself in my bedroom and cry for 1 hour when I got home from school every day of 5th grade). I think I may have gotten better at damage control than my mother was, because my daughter does discuss these things with me. The best thing I managed to come up with is to counter such taunts with the equally ridiculous statement "At least I'm not adopted" (saying that cheered my daughter up, anyway. I am not sure she's used it "in the field").

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[info]tiferet
2008-05-12 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I am adopted, and hearing other kids say things like that was painful for me when I was a kid. (Not that I was the verbal bully but one does overhear a lot of it.)

I wonder if saying "At least I'm not X..." with an X that is really truly ridiculous, a complete non sequituur, as opposed to something that really is hurtful to some people, would have the same effect.

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(no subject) - [info]voxwoman, 2008-05-12 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to ataniell93... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 05:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to ataniell93... - [info]leora, 2008-05-12 10:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]voxwoman, 2008-05-12 05:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to ataniell93... - [info]pperiwinkle, 2008-05-12 06:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]briar_witch
2008-05-12 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Not to be contrarian, but in my experience, it has seemed that for some circumstances, the only viable and effective defense IS a counter-attack.

I don't mean to seem critical of your methods, but they seem to be predicated on the verbal aggressor either being willing to follow some form of social contract and/or code of conduct, or to be sensitive enough to verbal response nuances to understand that they are being jerks/foolish and should stop. (And/Or that they CARE that they are being nasty)

What my experience has taught me, is that some persons will respond ONLY to a direct and aggressive counter-attack, intended to make continued aggression so unpleasant and counter-productive that they will leave you strictly alone in the future. Anything short of that is seen as weakness and an invitation to continue the bullying/improper aggression.

This is not to say, of course, that counter attack is the preferred method, nor should it be the primary response pattern. But that in some (Very limited) cases, it becomes the last resort "Nuclear option".

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[info]tiferet
2008-05-12 04:57 pm UTC (link)
I kind of agree with this, but I'm not a pacifist.

The problem, though, is that it's very emotionally satisfying to go nuclear on someone who's given you a hard time for a while. So much so that it's quite like a drug, and can become addictive.

And it took/is taking me a while to kick the habit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to dpolicar.... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-12 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]briar_witch, 2008-05-12 06:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]indefatigable42, 2008-05-12 08:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]briar_witch, 2008-05-12 08:41 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]dpolicar, 2008-05-12 06:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 02:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar.... - [info]leora, 2008-05-12 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-05-12 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gement, 2008-05-13 12:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mmegaera, 2008-05-13 01:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]filkferengi, 2008-05-18 02:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rosalux, 2008-05-13 01:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2008-05-13 02:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2008-05-14 02:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to Michael Farris... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-14 02:40 pm UTC (Expand)
Tangential--adult bullying - (Anonymous), 2008-05-13 04:20 am UTC (Expand)
Fictional rehearsal for coping with verbal abuse
[info]hagsrus
2008-05-12 05:28 pm UTC (link)
At the "break-off" the ranks stood fast. Perowne fell out, faced them ... drilled them for ten minutes... Then Stalky laid aside his Snider, and, drawing a long breath, favored the company with a blast of withering invective.

"'Old 'ard, Muster Corkran. That ain't in any drill," cried Foxy.

"All right, Sergeant. You never know what you may have to say to your men.--For pity's sake, try to stand up without leanin' against each other, you blear-eyed, herrin'-gutted gutter-snipes. It's no pleasure to me to comb you out. That ought to have been done before you came here, you--you militia broom-stealers."

"The old touch--the old touch. _We_ know it," said Keyte, wiping his rheumy eyes. "But where did he pick it up?"

"From his father--or his uncle. Don't ask me! Half of 'em must have been born within earshot o' the barracks." (Foxy was not far wrong in his guess.) "I've heard more back-talk since this volunteerin'
nonsense began than I've heard in a year in the service."

"There's a rear-rank man lookin' as though his belly were in the pawn-shop. Yes, you, Private Ansell," and Stalky tongue-lashed the victim for three minutes, in gross and in detail.

"Hullo!" He returned to his normal tone. "First blood to me. You flushed, Ansell. You wriggled."

"Couldn't help flushing," was the answer. "Don't think I wriggled,
though."

"Well, it's your turn now." Stalky resumed his place in the ranks....

Ansell, too, had been blessed with relatives in the service, and slowly, in a lazy drawl--his style was more reflective than Stalky's--descended the abysmal depths of personality.

"Blood to me!" he shouted triumphantly. "You couldn't stand it, either." Stalky was a rich red, and his Snider shook visibly.

"I didn't think I would," he said, struggling for composure, "but after a bit I got in no end of a bait. Curious, ain't it?"

"Good for the temper," said the slow-moving Hogan, as they returned arms to the rack.


Stalky and Co by Rudyard Kipling (The Flag of Their Country chapter)

(Reply to this)


[info]ingulf
2008-05-12 07:03 pm UTC (link)
About bullying - it may be worth explaining to kids that not all namecalling is actually a threat. This is something I only figured out as an adult, and I wish I'd known earlier. It may be an inept overture of friendship - but if treated as a threat, it will become one.
I'll expand that a little: As adults, we sometimes, making it clear that we're joking, insult our friends, and laugh when they insult us back. Children won't necessarily know how to make it clear that it's not intended (and they may be a bit hazy as to whether it's intended).

Of course, some adults don't indicate the humour either, treating it as a sport; which I don't like much, but among some groups it is the rule.

But in any case, I think the correct response is to insult back, as if the insults are merely an amusement - neither aggressively not defensively. I don't know how to get a kid to understand that, though.

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[info]indefatigable42
2008-05-12 07:35 pm UTC (link)
That's one that took me a long time to figure out. As soon as I started school I was taunted and bullied rather cruelly, and at some point when I was a teenager I started being exposed to the friendly jibes that you talk about. I had no way of knowing that this was not just an extension of the previous cruelty. (It didn't help that there were still some kids doing the cruel kind of name-calling, which had morphed into something like sexual harassment once we all hit puberty.)

Maybe some of these kids were genuinely trying to be jokey and friendly when we were younger, but I still don't understand it as an adult. If they did not want to hurt me, surely they could have seen that I was miserable, and stopped? Somewhere in there, there's a cruel streak that gets a kick out of seeing someone in distress, or maybe a cowardly streak that renders the person unable to go against whatever the rest of the crowd is doing. If I'd figured out that they were joking, I wouldn't have wanted friends like that anyways.

Even today, when I hear children of a certain age laughing, I think it sounds evil. I know they're just little humans, and they need kindness and guidance in order to become good big humans, but I can't help thinking they're nasty little monsters at heart.

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(no subject) - [info]indefatigable42, 2008-05-12 07:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ingulf, 2008-05-12 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-05-14 01:12 pm UTC (Expand)
another idea
[info]recovered_dream
2008-05-12 09:04 pm UTC (link)
When faced with bullies picking on my children I tried talking to them, modeling, etc. Nothing seemed to give the kids what they needed to cope. Eventually, I set up a role-play situation. The first time through, I pretended to be my child and they pretended to be the bully. After seeing me model ways to handle being bullied, we switched. It worked wonderfully and in more than one instance, the bully left my child alone after a few attempts.

That said, there was one situation where a bully became angry and physically attacked my son. I had not taught him how to handle that possibility and it ended rather badly all around. So, if anyone decides to try this approach with their child, make sure you include how to handle a bully going from verbal attacks to physical attacks, just in case.

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Re: another idea
[info]gement
2008-05-13 12:05 am UTC (link)
This might have helped me, along with the suggestion above about watching confrontational things on TV to think about them as possible situations.

I was raised in a household where we were not to say hurtful things to each other. Ever. Including "shut up." I learned some really wonderful caring communication patterns that work very well when everyone is playing by those rules because they care about each others' feelings.

When I was picked on in school, I had no mental models for what was going on. My memories of it are hazy, I think partly because it was so confusing.

In one case, when the bullies picked a particularly stupid nickname, my parents took it, pointed out that it was in the first half nonsensical and in the second half complimentary, and desensitized me to it; they will still occasionally call me "Moobrain." Other than that, I think they weren't sure what to do about it.

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Re: another idea ... response to recovered_dream... - [info]ozarque, 2008-05-14 01:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: another idea - [info]victoriacatlady, 2008-05-21 03:08 am UTC (Expand)

[info]merry6683
2008-05-13 12:08 pm UTC (link)
Yeah...hahah

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[info]kelsied
2008-05-13 01:34 pm UTC (link)
I feel I should also note... while I was relatively lucky(!), and my tormentors mostly limited themselves to verbal abuse, my husband used to get regularly ganged up on by people physically. The only answer he found was to escalate the violence so wildly that people were afraid to come after him... and my husband is NOT a violent man, but he was a desperate (and somewhat undersized) boy.

And I don't know what the answer is to that. It seems to me that there are some situations that are so dangerous that there is no right answer... but maybe I just give up too easily. I keep hoping I just give up too easily...

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[info]rosalux
2008-05-13 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Dangerous situations are the ones where adults should intervene.

When they don't, or won't, that's when things get really, really bad.

A friend of mine from a really disfunctional family has this story about how her little brother would get picked on by other kids in the neighborhood because he was always out and about on his own. So she (even though she was pretty little herself) went the wildly violent route herself, which worked OK for both of them (and in the situation was incredibly brave and protective) but what the story says to me is, fine, *her* parents weren't there to help...but where were those other kids parents? When I was the "big kid" at 10 and 12, if any of us had picked on some random little kid, my mom would have heard and there would have been Trouble.

Actually, her sister has a story about being just tormented on the school bus for being poor, and bookish, and timid. And that one has the same problem but magnified by a whole bunch of adults who should have intervened - parents, bus driver, teachers, school administrators.

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(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2008-05-14 02:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]aenodia
2008-05-14 01:07 am UTC (link)
We really were not much help to our children when they told us about being picked on at school. My husband I and I were often picked on during grade and middle school. The best I could come up with was to laugh when someone tried to insult them. People will pick on someone they perceive as weak or different especially being overweight or wearing glasses.
So first you have to know how before you can model behavior.

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Story from one of my own kids
(Anonymous)
2008-05-14 08:52 pm UTC (link)
In 1994, we were living in Clear Lake, TX next to Johnson Space Center. In April I was laid off, and we were struggling. My middle child Heather asked if she could have a friend Jessie from her Junior High over to spend the night. We agreed, and the visit went off okay. A week later, Heather started coming home with stories of kids randomly attacking her for no reason, both verbally and physically. The abuse got worse and spread from the school to the school bus, coming from random kids. One night Heather came to us really worried, working herself up to doing something to defend herself. After considering our options, we sat down with her and took the following tack. We told her what we could about New Testament stories, and about the principle of turning the other cheek. We also covered some history of early Christians with that philosophy, and similar stories from other settings. We also talked about the GAVSD principles that we could, but the key was that she NOT strike back, because that would trigger more attacks or even a fight. Heather was dubious, but willing to give it a try. Next day, she came home happy, stating that a kid had walked up to her and insulted her for no reason. She just calmly said “Well, okay” and went on her way. Twenty minutes later the kid came back to her in another place and apologized. Heather accepted that politely and went on. Stories like this were repeated every day. After a week, Heather told us that some of the other kids around had noticed that this little gang (and she could now recognize that it was a gang), was picking on Heather, and they were starting to voice this to the gang members. Heather realized that she had power in the situation. We pointed out that the natural group defense of the other kids around was rising up to protect her; and she really got into that. One day one of the gang did something mean to Heather, and later apologized again (this was now a pattern). Heather asked why they did it, and the answer came out. Jessie was the leader of this gang, and was putting all the kids up to doing something to hurt Heather. The situation continued, and we learned more. Jessie was part of a divided family. She, her mother and four of her brothers and sisters were struggling to keep their lives together in a small, cramped apartment, while her father and the other 3 siblings were living in another part of town. This situation continued to grow, with Heather taking more attacks including physical ones, and the surrounding group coalescing around her, also growing and taking on the abusers. Heather once stated that she was actually grateful to Jessie, because she now had more friends than she had ever had, counting up to 50 kids taking on this issue and siding with her. The situation in the gang broke down, all the kids turned on Jessie; and told her she had to apologize to Heather. So Jessie humbly asked Heather if she could come over and spend the night again. Wonderingly, Heather asked what to do, and we told her to accept the offer (it was on our turf so they were both safe). On the appointed night, Heather and I drove over to pick Jessie up. Driving back with Heather up front with me, and Jessie huddling alone in the back seat, we heard this plaintive little voice say “Dont you just hate it when someone jumps on you for no reason?” Heather and I looked at each other, and I realized; that was the apology. They spent the evening noodling around, nothing dramatic happened, and we returned Jessie home afterward. Then the gang invited Heather to go to a fancy restaurant for a meal. I told Heather we were dealing with the layoff, and we could only afford to give her a dollar or two; so the gang changed plans, they went to McDonalds instead and had a good time. After that, things were fine for Heather and she was actually popular with the gang. Dad did not do so well, and that summer we moved back to West Texas to live with my wifes mother, laid off and broke, and tossed out of our home again. Later Heather had an opportunity to go back to Clear Lake and visit her school. She had a good time with her real, non gang friends, and gave a report that the gang had been rounded up by Jessie and was now firmly back under her control.

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