ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2008-05-06 11:04:00
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Short story; "Final Exam"; questions...
After I posted the list of Professions on Abba, [info]akitrom commented with a set of questions that I'm going to try to answer. But before I do that, I have to tell you that I wouldn't be able to answer many -- perhaps most -- questions about Abba. The work I've done in that fictional universe ["For the Sake of Grace," At the Seventh Level, "Final Exam," and "Modulation in All Things"] has been focused mostly on a narrow segment of the society, and I've never worked out the rest of the culture in detail. There wasn't the sort of intricately fleshed-out backstory for Abba that I did for my later novels; I was a much younger and much less experienced writer then.

Now, to the questions...

1. What kind of crimes are legal, and what kinds are always illegal?

There are only two ways a crime can be illegal. One is if the Criminal fails to do the paperwork properly ... doesn't fill out some form, fills out some form incorrectly, fails to meet a deadline for filing some form, violates some obscure technicality ... that kind of thing. The other way is if the application for the crime is rejected by the administrators and the Criminal goes ahead with the crime in defiance of the rejection.


2. Can it be legal for criminals to impersonate members of other professions?

If the paperwork is done properly and the application for the impersonation is not rejected, it's a legal crime.


3. Do members of other professions who commit illegal acts become Criminals? Is that the Entrance Exam?

No; it's not like that. For one thing, in the Abban culture the idea of doing something outside the boundaries of your own Profession is horrifying and repulsive. For a Lawyer or a Scientist to do an act ordinarily reserved for Criminals would not be perceived as having committed a crime; only Criminals are qualified to commit crimes. The most likely outcome if someone other than a Criminal did something illegal would be a diagnosis of mental illness.


4. Why did Abba's founders think that it was important to have a recognized Criminal profession?

For Abbans, the most important thing of all, and the most desirable, is order. How could you have an orderly society if your Criminals could be just any old body?


5. Do you see something particularly "Male" to all this classification?

No. Not at all.


6. How do women function in this society? Every historical patriarchy with which I am familiar, whether they treat normal women as children or property, make room for the exceptional woman.

On Abba, anyone can apply to take the exams for any Profession, and any woman who was able to pass the qualifying exams for a Profession would have to be admitted to that Profession. [That's the core of the plot for the fiction I've done about Abba. The "what if" question was: "What if a young girl passed the qualifying exams for Poetry? Then what?"] But females in this culture are excluded all their lives long from almost every experience that would make them likely to be able to pass the exams.


7. But there have to be people who cannot pass exams, even Revolutionary ones. What happens to them?

People who fail all the other exams have no trouble passing the exams for the Profession of Service. Those exams are made so easy that it would be almost impossible to fail them. Especially if you are male, and have therefore been allowed to have a standard education.


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Re #6
[info]mamadeb
2008-05-06 04:11 pm UTC (link)
From what I gathered from "For the Sake of Grace" (a story I have read multiple times, but not in the last several years), the ONLY Profession a woman on Abba could apply to was Poetry - and the penalty for her failing was horrific.

Would the penalty for failing, say, "Service" be as horrific?

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[info]mhari_lindhaven
2008-05-06 04:18 pm UTC (link)
The item that leapt out at me when I read the story was "Light's Beard, young man!" the Senior Admministrator put in, "Don't you know you'll be no better off than a woman? You will literally have no rights at all! You will simply .... not exist!"

To me this suggests that women have no "place" in the society other than as chattel/breeders. If that's the case, then how could a woman qualify even as a poet?

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[info]onefixedstar
2008-05-06 04:58 pm UTC (link)
In "For the Sake of Grace," it's noted that women are allowed to take the poetry examination because poetry is a religious vocation and it's possible that the Creator might occasionally call a woman to His service.

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[info]foomf
2008-05-06 04:19 pm UTC (link)
7. But there have to be people who cannot pass exams, even Revolutionary ones. What happens to them?

People who fail all the other exams have no trouble passing the exams for the Profession of Service. Those exams are made so easy that it would be almost impossible to fail them. Especially if you are male, and have therefore been allowed to have a standard education.


And by "allowed" here, we of course read "forced".

This is a horrifying society ... I suspect the reason for making Revolutionary one of the career options is that they have, like the USA, carefully channeled what sorts of revolution are possible.

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like a social extension of scientific method: understanding, prediction, control. Like the leaders know they'd be totally flummoxed by a surprise.

Meg Umans

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[info]dpolicar
2008-05-06 04:34 pm UTC (link)
The other way is if the application for the crime is rejected by the administrators and the Criminal goes ahead with the crime in defiance of the rejection.

Well, OK. So the next question becomes: on what grounds do administrators properly reject applications for crimes?

One answer, obviously, is formal grounds... as you say, if the Criminal fails to do the paperwork properly. But you seem to be suggesting, when you distinguish between two ways for a crime to be illegal, that there's also content grounds for refusal.

So my question becomes: on what grounds, if any, do administrators properly reject properly-filled-out applications for crimes?

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[info]pgdudda
2008-05-06 04:39 pm UTC (link)
Why, on grounds of that "pursuant to Ch.XXIIV, SS. 14, Para. 3(b), the following activities cannot be approved under any circumstances: [long, detailed list]"

;-)

Edited at 2008-05-06 04:43 pm UTC

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[info]dpolicar
2008-05-06 05:03 pm UTC (link)
In which case I would say that the answer to "what is really illegal?" is the contents of that list. These are the things that you actually aren't allowed to do.

That is basically the system we have in our own society, except we label it differently. That is, we have Ch.XXIIV, SS. 14, Para. 3(b) and we call it the legal code, and we call the activities described in it crimes.

And we have a whole long other list of things that we can do as long as we have the proper paperwork filled out -- drive a car, build a house, open a restaurant, shoot people, etc. -- and we don't call those things crimes unless the proper paperwork isn't filled out.

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[info]ethesis
2008-05-06 05:30 pm UTC (link)
At the Seventh Level -- isn't that a Communipath novel?

I went on-line at Amazon and couldn't find any of the others, only At the Seventh Level. I must have looked wrong.

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[info]ethesis
2008-05-06 05:37 pm UTC (link)
# "For the Sake of Grace" - Fantasy & Science Fiction, 1969
# "Old Rocking Chair's Got Me" - Fantasy & Science Fiction, 1974
# "Modulation in All Things" - Reflections of the Future anthology, 1975
# "Lest Levitation Come Upon Us" - Perpetual Light anthology, 1982 (reprinted in The Year's Best Fantasy Stories: 9 anthology, 1983)

Ahh.

http://engl3722departurefromreality.blogspot.com/2008/03/for-sake-of-grace-suzette-haden-elgin.html

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Response to ethesis...
[info]ozarque
2008-05-06 05:41 pm UTC (link)
It's set in the Coyote Jones series universe, which means it is, as you say, a Communipath novel. The other titles I mentioned from "Abba" fiction are all short stories, however, not novels.

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Re: Response to ethesis...
[info]ethesis
2008-05-06 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, I should have figured that out sooner.

Any chance of a short story collection now that you've got a handful of them?

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Re: Response to ethesis...
[info]redrose3125
2008-05-06 07:13 pm UTC (link)
yesplease! I am dreading tracking down old copies of all the magazines your short stories have been published in.

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[info]akitrom
2008-05-06 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Thank you very much.

"Master Tannar, we have an odd request here."
"What's that you say?"
"A Criminal named Luiron has submitted a request to commit a crime."
"Well, yes. And?"
"He's requesting approval of, and I quote, 'Just ripping people off in a spree, whenever I takes a likin' to it, no muss, no fuss, no bloody paperwork.'"
"But, that's absurd. That'd be against all--!"
"Yes, Master Tannar. Which is why I believe he's submitting the request."

It must be legal to contract with a Criminal to "do your dirty work for you." (As a matter of fact, I can see Criminals being very rarely "self-employed".) It's the pathetic people who hire a Criminal to steal ofice supplies from their workplace.

It must also be possible to shift professions somehow. If all of the Profession X people were suddenly incapacitated, or moved away, someone would have to take up the slack, and Abbans might not be able to wait around till the young people fill enough slots.

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[info]wolfangel78
2008-05-06 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Can non-Criminals do illegal acts in the same way that Criminals can? If a Scientist does a non-approved experiment, is this the same kind of thing as a Criminal stealing something without authorization? What happens when these things occur?

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[info]ahistoricality
2008-05-06 07:54 pm UTC (link)
"For Sake of Grace": I remember that one; powerful stuff, especially since I was a young teen when I first read it. I thought this seemed familiar....

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[info]dteleki
2008-05-07 11:06 pm UTC (link)
In Abban culture as you imagined it....

1. For applications to commit crimes, is there a fee payable to the government, in money or gifts or whatever? A significantly large fee that varies widely depending on what kind of crime it is? Or is there no fee at all? Or is there at most a modest paperwork-processing fee, that varies more-or-less directly with the labor involved in evaluating the application?

2. How does a male choose a Profession? Are there opportunities to act as an apprentice Professional, before having taken the exams? What if it turns out that actually practicing a profession, is so different from studying for the exams, that somebody who passes the qualifying exams turns out to be hopelessly bad at practicing the Profession? Are there re-certification exams that can be failed?

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