ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-12-27 08:14:00
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Politics; advice across the Generation Gap; youngers to elders?
After I posted my seven rough guidelines for elders giving advice to those who are younger, on December 22nd, there were two comments asking me for something similar going in the opposite direction.

[info]rahaeli commented:
"If you have any corresponding bits of advice for the other direction of conversation -- younger to elder -- I'd be very interested in hearing it. A lot of times, when communicating (online or in person) with someone a generation or so older than I am (I'm thirty, so very tail end of GenX) I know that we've having a conversational rupture and I don't know how to repair it."

And [info]kheha replied to that comment, saying:
"Very much agreed. I tend to be better at repairing with people that I know well (or we are less likely to have a misunderstanding in the first place), but conversational ruptures seem to happen more and more. Perhaps the reason is that I'm interacting more with people who are less used to having conversations with people of my generation, but I do wish I were able to fix it on my end with more prowess than I have now."

I have a feeling that the question itself has shifted a bit in these two comments. That is, my perception is that I'm not being asked specifically about "guidelines for younger people who are giving advice to those who are older"; rather, the question is a more general one about how to avoid and/or repair communication breakdowns when members of the younger generations [hereafter, just "youngers"] are involved in language interactions with elders.

I may be wrong about that shift; it may be that this is yet another example of an elder who's misunderstanding what's been said. If so -- if the question really is about youngers giving advice to elders -- I can say just a few tentative words. As follows...

It's best to give elders advice only when they've asked you a specific question to which you either know the answer or know how to find the answer. In this journal, for example, there've been many times when I've asked a specific question about how to use some LJ feature or how to do something with my digital camera, and there has been an immediate response providing me with the information I needed. That's wonderful, and I've been very grateful for the help. Suppose the elderly person who lives next door comes to you and says "I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make the flash work on my new camera; could you help me with that?". In such a case, it's appropriate, and safe, for you to give advice.

I suspect that that's not the sort of interaction that led to the comments from [info]rahaeli and [info]kheha. My guess is that it's more likely to be a scenario where youngers notice elders struggling with their cameras, trying to get the flash to work and getting nowhere, and the youngers' impulse is to step in and fix that -- in spite of the fact that the elders haven't asked them any questions. Which is, I'm sorry to say, likely to lead to what [info]rahaeli and [info]kheha aptly call "conversational ruptures."

I'm going to stop here, since I'm not certain exactly what's wanted, and wait for clarification.

Over to you...


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[info]fibermom
2007-12-27 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Ideally, it wouldn't matter how old the people were. A person who knew how to use the camera would feel free to help a person who was struggling with it, regardless of age. In real life, I think that people feel that the flow of advice ought to be from older to younger. This means that information about how to use the camera (and I bet it is more often something like how to live your life, when conversational ruptures are involved) sounds disrespectful coming from a younger person. Meanwhile, younger people, reminded by the flow of advice on how to live their lives that they are in a subordinate position, seethe about that. So instead of friendly helpful "Grandma, have you thought about going back to school?" and "Son, let me show you another way to play that song," people hear "Okay, Wrinklies, let me tell you what you're doing wrong" and "Okay, Pipsqueak, let me tell you what you're doing wrong."

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[info]undauntra
2007-12-27 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I agree with your first sentence and strongly disagree with your second. Ideally, a person facing the challenge of learning to use a new camera would feel free to do it by trial and error, asking for help, or reading the manual - whichever method they preferred, without interference by impatient people.

Impatience is the most charitable reading I can give to the act of providing unsolicited help in a trivial situation. Depending on the relationship between the people, tone of voice, and body language, unsolicited help could also be read as a desire to show off one's own skills, or a desire to belittle the other person's competence. It gets especially nasty if anyone else is there to witness, because then the learner's competence is being publicly insulted.

I specifically qualify this with "in a trivial situation", because there are situatations where the negative consequences outweigh the insult. Packing a parachute, for one.

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[info]fibermom
2007-12-27 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Excellent point. I was thinking of myself here, because I am one of those who relies on my kids to help me figure out new gadgets. In fact, I routinely look around for the youngest person in the room (strangers included) and ask for help when I need to, say, turn off my cell phone or something. Your response is not one that would occur to me, but it is certainly a valid one. Fortunately, I am never moved to offer assistance with gadgets, so I don't have to look back in horror at all the people I might have offended.

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[info]kelsied
2007-12-27 07:36 pm UTC (link)
I don't think it's impatience at all. I think it often stems from a genuine desire to spare one's valued elders (or anyone else, for that matter) from unnecessary frustration.

There is nothing impatient or inappropriate about a well-timed "Do you want me to help you take a look at that?" or even "I've got some experience working with those, if you'd like a hand with it at some point."

I've never had anyone react badly to either approach, delivered in a tone of honest desire to help. You've just got to be willing to be okay with a "no" and walk away. And be willing to be gracious -- by which I mean GENUINELY gracious, not "gracious" in a way that telegraphs your feelings of superiority -- if they come back to you later and say "okay, now I think I'm ready to accept some help figuring this out."

Genuine good will trumps an awful lot of social awkwardness.

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[info]undauntra
2007-12-27 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Both approaches you mention are examples of *offers* of help, as opposed to actual unsolicited help. I think it makes a big difference, whether help is just offered (which gives the target an opportunity to turn down the offer) or whether it is thrust upon the unwilling. It's kind of like sex that way. :)

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[info]kelsied
2007-12-28 01:43 am UTC (link)
I'll grant you that.

I'm so glad I read this post at home, after work. I couldn't help giggling at your analogy.

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[info]foms
2007-12-27 03:02 pm UTC (link)
http://www.elorasoap.com/working_k/karensloop/rupture.html

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[info]ironphoenix
2007-12-27 03:19 pm UTC (link)
I don't know that it's so different between young and old, here.

Offering help is probably better than giving it immediately: to give help without permission implies that the person being helped is unable (or incompetent) to respond properly to an offer of help, as an infant or unconscious person would be. It seems to me that people--both young and old--are quite sensitive to being judged incompetent, and so avoiding things that convey that judgement is likely to help the flow of communication!

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-12-27 03:21 pm UTC (link)
This was my thought also... that no one, no matter how old they are, appreciates un-asked-for advice. :)

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[info]hilleviw
2007-12-27 04:27 pm UTC (link)
Except that there are ways to ask for help or advice without an actual question mark, so whether there has been a request can be up for debate. I'm thinking of a recent example from this journal:

Not long ago, Ozarque posted a couple of test messages and asked people not to respond. Of course, people couldn't help themselves. I suggested in a comment that an option would be to change the privacy setting on such posts in future. She responded appreciatively - I had no impression that the suggestion was unwanted. She didn't explicitly ask for help, but did convey frustration with a circumstance she didn't know how to change.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-12-27 04:33 pm UTC (link)
True!

It's been one of my continuing goals, to learn to listen to advice or suggestions, no matter how they're tendered, with grace... and to use them, if they're useful, even if I didn't ask for help. Very difficult, though.

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[info]hilleviw
2007-12-27 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Nuance is a tricky beast, isn't it? Sometimes I don't ask for help because I don't know help is possible, or I don't want to impose, or I don't want to appear needy...but when it comes, I can be very grateful. On the other hand, if it comes in the "you should" form, I'm likely to dig my heels in and do anything but what's recommended. And if someone says "would you like help with that?" I'm likely to say yes, but if for some reason I say no and the help comes anyway, then I'll definitely be cross.

I also think that if I'm out in a public space announcing "I don't know how to make this work the way I want it to! Oh woe is me!" I'm asking for advice even though there's no question marks involved.

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Stepping in
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-12-27 06:15 pm UTC (link)
If I see someone struggling with something, and I could help, my usual approach is to say, "Would you like some help with that?" instead of just jumping in. If it looks like something is about to break or fall, or is causing a serious diruption, that's about where I'll jump in without an invitation in the interest of staving off disaster.

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Re: Stepping in
[info]starcat_jewel
2007-12-27 06:33 pm UTC (link)
I agree. "Would you like some help with that?" is a polite offer -- as long as the one offering is prepared to accept "No, thanks" as an answer! (This has occasionally been an issue with some people I've known.)

OTOH, "Let me help you with that" is insulting and presumptuous; insulting because it assumes incompetence, and presumptuous because it both asks and answers the above question for the other person.

Tangentially, my jewelry-making work area is in the same room with my partner's home-office computer, and I'm one of those people who will sputter and swear when something is frustrating me. Very early on, I had to establish a ground rule: unless and until I specifically ASK for help, don't offer it! Sometimes I just need to work with it until I get it right on my own.

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Re: Stepping in
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-12-27 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I'm generally willing to take no for an answer, and indeed, have an unusually high willingless to let people make their own mistakes and discoveries if they want to. I meant to specify that, but got distracted.

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