ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-12-21 08:27:00
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Politics; unexpected fascination; afternote....
This is one of those days when I am so swamped with work that I don't even know where to begin; I've got a stack of clerical and accounts stuff to slog through, I have a stack of correspondence to tend to that can't be done by e-mail, I have an Annual Meeting [and its minutes] this afternoon, I have a long list of Christmas preparation tasks that can't be put off any longer [including really serious dusting and polishing]... It's hectic at my house today. I got up this morning, therefore, thinking that I'd use my scheduled LiveJournal time to respond to as many of your comments for the "Politics; unexpected fascination" post as I could.

But as I read through the thread again I realized that in almost every case a response would be superfluous. Your comments have either been separate discussions of your own, with no need for me to add anything, or they've been interesting and careful answers to my questions that can be summed up like this:

Q:"Am I the only one who finds this presidential primary campaign surreal?"
A: "No -- you have company."

Q: "Is my perception that the whole thing is bizarre -- and bizarrely fascinating -- just a sign of an aging mind?"
A: "No -- it really is bizarre, and bizarrely fascinating."

I think -- with one exception -- that the appropriate thing for me to do is to thank you sincerely for all those comments, and for sharing your opinions and perceptions and memories with me, and then get started on all that offline work I have to do. The one exception is:

[info]1950democrat commented:
"You've talked about giving advice ... I would like to see some advice about how to give advice to a generation that didn't see what happened to McGovern in 1972, and even some who don't seem to know what the Clintons did in the 90s. I know you've spoken against giving unsolicited advice, but in the Iowa primary debates I don't know how to talk without either being in advice mode or making fun of the younger generation, seeing them as clueless."

I'm sorry; I really do believe that giving advice to representatives of the younger generations is a waste of time and energy unless they have come to you voluntarily and said something along the lines of "Have you ever seen a mess like this before?" and "Do you have any advice on how to deal with a mess like this?" If youngsters are asking you that sort of question, I congratulate you, and I encourage you to seize the opportunity, keeping in mind the younger generations' strong preference for answers that are brief, concise, and to the point.

If a younger person is literally on fire, I think it's appropriate to say "You might want to lie down and roll yourself up in the rug to put that fire out," and chances are good that saying that will turn out to have been a useful thing to do -- but that, in my experience, is where it ends.


==================
Nonfiction online: "How Verbal Self-Defense Works" at http://people.howstuffworks.com/vsd.htm ; "Why Are Old Women Older Than Old Men And How Can We Fix That?" at http://www.seniorwomen.com/articles/articlesElginOld.html ; Religious Language Newsletter archive at http://www.forlovingkindness.org . Fiction online: "We Have Always Spoken Panglish" at http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/Story-Panglish.html ; "What The EPA Don't Know Won't Hurt Them" at http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/epa.htm ; "Weather Bulletin" at http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/Weather.html ; "A Quorum Of Grandmothers" at http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/QuorumOfGrandmothers.html ; The Communipaths at http://www.jackiepowers.com/SuzetteHadenElgin/TheCommunipaths.html . More stuff at http://www.sfwa.org/members/elgin/SiteMap.html ; LiveJournal blog index at http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=ozarque .


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[info]sarah_ovenall
2007-12-21 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for correct use of the word "literally"! When I got to your sentence that began, "If a younger person is literally on fire..." I thought you meant "figuratively," and were going to make a suggestion on how to approach a younger person who is full of energy and enthusiasm for politics. Then I read on and realized that you really did mean a person who was literally on fire. Thanks, you made my morning!

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Response to sarah_ovenall...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:42 pm UTC (link)
You're very welcome. And thank you for your comment.

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[info]pgdudda
2007-12-21 02:43 pm UTC (link)
"giving advice to representatives of the younger generations is a waste of time and energy unless they have come to you voluntarily"

...now, if you could magically make my mother understand this, my universe would be a much calmer place. Unfortunately, "give unsolicited advice" seems to be part of the job description for "Mother"... *sigh*

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Response to pqdudda...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:43 pm UTC (link)
You have my sympathy. Listening patiently all the same will earn you karma points...

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Re: Response to pqdudda...
[info]writerwench
2007-12-21 07:18 pm UTC (link)
In which case, my karma is sufficient to bear me to Nirvana in a heartbeat. My mother is now 80, and still conscientiously advising all four of her 50+ aged daughters on a daily basis.

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[info]indefatigable42
2007-12-21 03:04 pm UTC (link)
I don't think anyone likes unsolicited advice on things like that, regardless of age. People who are in a forum for discussing politics will discuss it; outside of that, nobody wants to hear it.

There are certainly young people who do go looking for people to discuss the subject with, and they tend not to be any more ignorant than older people who are in touch with the issues.

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Response to indefatigable42...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:44 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry to have sounded snarky; it wasn't intentional.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-12-21 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Though - if you really have seen a mess like this before - it is probably a public service to point it out. I'm on a forum where on one thread people are posting the economic news from 1929, the gist of which is "When people who remembered the Great Depression died off or retired, people with no living memory of it discarded all the Depression-era regulations as standing in the way of their get-rich-quick schemes. Well, guess what? It proved to be like removing safety locks from whatever your gadget of choice is.

Likewise, many an historian has pointed out that the nastiest wars in history are started by people with no living memory of ever having been in a truly nasty war. (I call this the Chickenhawk Effect).

So - while I won't go around giving gratituous advice to people currently on the front lines of whatever our times are throwing at them, I will make general comments about "Yes, we've seen this before, here's what happened, and here's how we solved it." Or else, why have elders (aka The Tribal Memory) around?

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Response to idiotgrrl...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:47 pm UTC (link)
I understand the point you're making. But when the Tribal Memory gets imposed on people who have no interest in what's being said, the result tends to be misunderstandings and distortions of the information. I'm not sure that's useful.

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[info]mswyrr
2007-12-22 04:46 am UTC (link)
This forum you mention sounds like a place I want to visit. Where is it at, if I may ask?

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-12-22 02:12 pm UTC (link)
Before I send you there, I have to warn you it has its full share of childishness and namecalling both personal and political - we're not talking Socroates' symposium here.

www.fourthturning.com.

Also look up the blog "History Unfolding" and two other blogs, Dana Blankenhorn's and John Xenakis' Generational Dynamics. Bring bias filters but truly worthwhile. (With Xenakis, bring a sense of humor; he's a sourpuss.)

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[info]1950democrat
2007-12-22 07:53 am UTC (link)
I too would like to visit that forum!

I apologize for being so unclear in my question. I'm not talking about actually 'giving advice' in person. My question was about discussion in political forums where I do think it's relevant to (for example) inform people just what McGovern did in 1972 that resulted in damage to him and to the Dems -- which Obama seems in danger of doing now.

I think doing this with sufficient detail is appropriate, for several reasons. Of course I suppose it's best to start with a concise statement, then get into the detail in answer to challenges (if I can find the thread again).

Or maybe, try to slip it in in bits and pieces, instead of a short summary that might seem too alien for people of a different world-view to even consider?

Either way, on lively forums such as some at Kos or Huffington or even Hillaryis44, or the major media, it can be very difficult keeping up with long disorderly threads. So giving the bits of info in tiny doses is difficult for me and even an interested reader may not be able to find all the bits.

I do put in a link to my LJ at each post, but I'm not sure how much good that does, as mine is not the lively kind.

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Response to 1950democrat...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-22 01:46 pm UTC (link)
"I apologize for being so unclear in my question. I'm not talking about actually 'giving advice' in person. My question was about discussion in political forums where I do think it's relevant to (for example) inform people just what McGovern did in 1972 that resulted in damage to him and to the Dems -- which Obama seems in danger of doing now."

Ah .... I understand now. And that's a different situation, certainly, because presumably the people who are taking part in the discussion are there because they do want the information and do want to discuss it. Let's see if I can go back and try this again in a brief post....

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[info]wolfangel78
2007-12-21 03:47 pm UTC (link)
I don't think most people want you to come up and give them advice, whatever your respective generations. (If they ask for advice this may be different, though it may not, since people often ask for advice when they really just want confirmation.)

keeping in mind the younger generations' strong preference for answers that are brief, concise, and to the point.

Who likes long-winded circuitous answers (except from a few raconteurs)? No one ever mentioned that the Boring Baroque Response should be used only on the younger generations.

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Response to wolfangel78...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:49 pm UTC (link)
As I said above, I apologize for sounding snarky, and it wasn't deliberate. Please blame it on how much I didn't want to tackle all that work today.

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Re: Response to wolfangel78...
[info]wolfangel78
2007-12-21 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Actually, it didn't sound snarky, just a somewhat weary "kids these days".

I do agree that, as a general rule, people dislike taking advice, and especially from people of a significantly different generation (in either direction), and that if you have the chance, make your comments short and sweet. It's just good general advice, no matter what age group you're talking to. And advice which is very hard to take, no matter how much you know it's the right choice.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-12-22 02:14 pm UTC (link)
Today's elders have more tolerance for boring baroque - and use it more often - than people the age of my children. I've sen it over and over again in local politics where people the age of my children are starting to make their mark. HUGE contrast. Now check out C-Span when the House or Senate is in session. "Boring Baroque" is how they drive viewers back to their celebrity scandals.

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[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-12-21 04:45 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry; I really do believe that giving advice to representatives of the younger generations is a waste of time and energy unless they have come to you voluntarily and said something along the lines of "Have you ever seen a mess like this before?" and "Do you have any advice on how to deal with a mess like this?" If youngsters are asking you that sort of question, I congratulate you, and I encourage you to seize the opportunity, keeping in mind the younger generations' strong preference for answers that are brief, concise, and to the point.

I think this can be something that can be *discussed* without preaching to those of us who are younger. At 28, I've got only ten years of being able to participate in the process, and, I only came into my own (out of my family's focus and shadow) sometime during my undergraduate degree.

I'd love to *read* something like this online. And that's a fine forum for someone to say, "You know, this reminds me of..." and "Some of you probably remember..." without it feeling like the person is in "advice mode" or "talking down." It's there, and, I have the opportunity to read or not as I choose.

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Response to dulcinbradbury...
[info]ozarque
2007-12-21 05:52 pm UTC (link)
Mercy; I'm sorry again. It wasn't my intention to badmouth all the younger generations, but I seem to have managed it nonetheless. I apologize.

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[info]naohai
2007-12-21 06:07 pm UTC (link)
And that's a fine forum
for someone to say, "You know, this reminds me of..." and "Some of you
probably remember..." without it feeling like the person is in "advice
mode" or "talking down."


Yes, exactly. I enjoy studying history partly because there /are/ often parallels one can draw even between ancient events and the modern day. That kind of comparative study can be done without making a value judgement against the student.
It is as distasteful to hear that one should shut up and listen because there is nothing new under the sun as it is to hear that one's life experience is irrelevant to events erroneously trumped up as impressive.

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[info]starcat_jewel
2007-12-21 06:46 pm UTC (link)
This has reminded me of going to see the movie Mr. Holland's Opus with a friend and her 2 teenage daughters. Watching that movie pretty well knocked me on my ass, and I remember saying something like this as we came out of the theater:

"Right now, I really wish that the Vulcan mind meld was for real, because there's no way I can explain to you what that movie meant to me. That was MY history, but it won't mean any more to you than WWII movies do to me."

It's not that they don't understand what's in front of them, but that there are so many levels of subtext and association that they don't have access to, because all that is in the individual memories of the people who lived through it.

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[info]ingulf
2007-12-21 07:51 pm UTC (link)
"giving advice to representatives of the younger generations is a waste of time and energy unless they have come to you voluntarily"

Heh. I guess you're basing that on the immediately observed results. But, the advice may be remembered when they're older. Turn it round: Do you now remember, and have acted on, advice which you once ignored?

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Response to ingulf....
[info]ozarque
2007-12-22 01:52 pm UTC (link)
"Turn it round: Do you now remember, and have acted on, advice which you once ignored?"

No, unfortunately. As a youngster -- a stage that lasted at least until I was forty -- I was pretty well an Uncivilized Person. I didn't listen to advice from my elders [or from my peers, for that matter] well enough to remember it later.

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Re: Response to ingulf....
[info]pgdudda
2007-12-22 04:30 pm UTC (link)
*giggle* By contrast, I'm inclined to act against advice unless there are solid reasons to follow it. The more frequently the [same] advice is dispensed by the same person, the likelier I am to rebel against it.

...admittedly, this can (and has) been used in acts of "reverse-psychology". *wry grin*

PS: my lj screen-name is pGdudda, not pQdudda. Easy enough mistake, given how some fonts look and interact with web-link-underlining, but I just wanted to let you know. *grin*
PPS: hope any last-minute-holiday-fandango goes smoothly and without undue hassle!

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[info]sculpin
2007-12-22 10:16 pm UTC (link)
I'll cop to having taken to heart a much older person's advice which I'd once ignored. But it was really well-delivered advice from someone who had earned my respect many times over. And I do mean exquisitely delivered, by an expert raconteur.

He couched it in a funny story about a situation in which someone had given him that advice and how he had eventually had come to take it, to his great satisfaction. I see now that that was a very canny way to deliver advice. It was just self-deprecating enough that I didn't feel that he was emphasizing his higher status at my expense. And the story was unforgettable, so the sentiment was there when it was time for me to use it.

It helps that the advice in question is not sanctimonious at all. Quite the opposite. It's a saying about dealing with people who've done you wrong in a big way, and it's been passed through at least four generations now: "There's no road so straight it ain't got a curve in it somewhere." What does that mean? "Well, when they get to a curve, they've gotta slow down, right?" Right... "So that's where you're hiding in the bushes with a stick."

At the time I heard this, I was rather shocked. I was kind of a prig, and excessively pleased with myself for solving problems peaceably and reasonably. In recent years, I've come to see the point. I've never actually leapt out of the bushes and beaten an old enemy with a stick, metaphorically or otherwise. (Then again, I don't have any old enemies.) But there are times when I manage to keep my temper with my bizarrely hateful mother-in-law purely through saying to myself, "There's no road so straight." Someday, somehow, the situation will be just right and, if I so choose, there will be consequences. Sweet? No. Useful? You bet.

I've only run across this saying elsewhere once, and there it meant something a little different: just as no road is so straight it ain't got a curve in it, no person is so straight that he can't be tempted. It could also mean that into every life a little rain must fall. Could mean all sorts of things, really. If you don't know the explanatory bit about hiding in the bushes with a stick, I think that saying might be almost as good as, "You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks."

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[info]fibermom
2007-12-22 06:23 pm UTC (link)
Not to brag or anything... But I am well known among my circle as the only one who is able to resist giving her grown kids advice unless they ask for it. And they ask for it frequently. So do other young people. This is good, because I really love to give advice. So I think that your advice about not giving advice actually leads to being able to give that advice. If you see what I mean.

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