ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-11-13 09:13:00
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Linguistics; pragmatics; the "Abilene Paradox"...
During our recent discussion on how to ask for favors and respond to requests for favors, [info]naath commented:
"What I want to know is what to do when someone says "Lets all go and do X" and I don't want to do X very much but am willing to do X *as a favour to them* but don't want them to go around thinking that I *like* X."

Which made me think of a concept that I've found very useful, called "The Abilene Paradox," first written about by Jerry B. Harvey. The Wikipedia article on the Abilene Paradox [at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox ] quotes an anecdote from Harvey's article, "The Abilene Paradox and other Meditations on Management" in the Summer 1974 issue of Organizational Dynamics. My version of that anecdote goes like this:


It's a hot summer day in Texas, and a group of family and friends is sitting at home relaxing, with air conditioning and nice cool drinks and good company and conversation.. Everybody is comfortable and happy and enjoying their lazy afternoon together, when suddenly one member of the group suggests that they all get in the car and drive to Abilene -- fifty miles away -- for dinner, and they agree to do that. The drive is long and hot and boring; getting around in Abilene is equally hot and boring; the food at the restaurant isn't very good; and then there's another long hot boring drive to go through. And only after they're finally home again do they discover that everybody would really rather not have gone to Abilene for dinner. The person who suggested it only did so because she felt it was her obligation as hostess to suggest "doing something"; the others in the group only agreed because each of them thought that the others wanted to go have dinner in Abilene, and they didn't want to be wet blankets and spoil everybody else's day.


The basic pattern here is simple enough. Somebody in a group says "Let's all go and do X." And although nobody [sometimes not even the person who makes the suggestion] wants very much to do X, everybody agrees -- because, like [info]naath, they're willing to do X as a favor to the others and their perception is that the others really do want to do X.

Sometimes this ends as it did in Harvey's anecdote, with everyone learning after the fact that nobody wanted to do X. Sometimes, as in [info]naath's example, it ends with one or more people in the group acknowledging that they don't even like doing X, whatever it is. That's the best outcome, since people learn from the experience, and it often leads to a mutual agreement that the next time somebody makes a "Let's all..." suggestion everybody will respond to the suggestion honestly. Whether people actually follow through on that resolve will vary with the individual, but at least it has been openly acknowledged as one of the options available.

And then there are the times when it doesn't turn out this way, because nobody in the group says anything about not having wanted to go to Abilene, and everybody goes right on thinking that everybody else did want to go and did enjoy the experience. There are families, and organizations, and businesses, that go on for decades suffering through some sort of experience that everyone involved heartily dislikes, without anyone ever discovering that it's an empty tradition that nobody would keep if they had a choice.

Jerry Harvey's proposed solution is to set up a new tradition: Before a group actually makes a decision, one person in the group will say something like "I'm just checking... Are we maybe Going To Abilene?" And that utterance constitutes formal permission to speak up and say you don't really like what's being proposed and would rather not do it, so that the next step can be productive negotiation.

Based on my experience with this journal, I suspect that there's an Ask/Hint split here, and that the Askers among you may find it hard to imagine a scenario in which you wouldn't feel perfectly free to just respond to "Let's all go and do X" with "No, thanks, I'd rather not" or "Good grief, why would we want to do that?" I also suspect that as your life goes on you're likely to discover that such scenarios may come your way after all. For example.... When the setting is a meeting at your workplace and the person making the suggestion outranks you substantially. Or when the setting is a big family gathering and the person making the suggestion is a much-loved member of the family that nobody would ever want to embarrass. Or when the setting is a science fiction convention, and the person making the suggestion is the writer or artist or filk Guest Of Honor. Or... Other possibilities come to mind.

Which is why an agreed-upon-in-advance group protocol for finding out whether you're all just Going To Abilene is so valuable.


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[info]polydad
2007-11-13 03:50 pm UTC (link)
Very good post, thank you. I shall add "going to Abilene" to my personal vocabulary.

best,

Joel

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[info]naath
2007-11-13 03:51 pm UTC (link)
I think generally in my experience *someone* wanted to do X - which is good, because there would be no point in us all doing something we hated (I do like your story though)! It's generally that whilst this weekend I'm happy to do what you want maybe next weekend we could do what I want (or next month, or whenever) and not have you say "oh, we should do something naath likes; how about X" when next you think it might be suitable to do fun things I like - I think that needs to be avoided.

But I find it hard to say "OK, I don't much care for X, but since it's what you want to do we should do that" rather than "I hate X" because mostly I am happy to things I'm not very interested in for other people's general benefit; and often they are willing to do things for my benefit too - and I'd like it better if when they chose to do so that it was actually to my benefit!

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[info]ladyvorkosigan
2007-11-13 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I think my group of friends at the moment - perhaps because most of us are law students and used to stating our minds - are pretty good about laying our position on the table, in the vein of "it's not my first choice, but I'm okay with it," or "anything but x," or "I'd prefer y." I find it enormously helpful, but I'm not so good at working with other groups who are more Hint culture.

The other thing I think is useful in groups is having some sort of mechanism to short-cut the "I don't know, what do you want to do?" responses that drag on into infinity - either by having a group of people who know each other well enough to know who genuinely doesn't mind having other people step up and make the decisions and who's just playing coy because that's what they do, or having patterns where people are willing to say "I don't have strong feelings; you make the decision tonight."

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[info]starcat_jewel
2007-11-13 04:12 pm UTC (link)
The biggest problem I see with this is that the times when it's worst needed are likely to be exactly the times when many of the people present will not be familiar with the Abilene Paradox, and therefore will look at you as if you've just announced that the freebles are gnashed. You do address this point by mentioning a "mutually agreed-upon" code, but in most of the examples you use (a work meeting, an extended family gathering, a group at a con) there are going to be a significant number of people who just don't know the code.

Not to mention that in a work situation, it's going to be perceived as just as insubordinate for a lower-level worker to ask, "Are we going to Abilene?" as for him/her to say, "I don't want to do that," when the Big Boss has made the suggestion.

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[info]beckyzoole
2007-11-14 12:10 am UTC (link)
Yes, and if you take the time to tell the story and explain the concept of "going to Abilene", the response (whether spoken or not) is likely to be, "What you're saying is that you don't want to do this, right?"

I've often been in workplace situations where the Big Boss makes a suggestion. I've generally found that managers don't appreciate having their every move critiqued, but neither do they want complete yes-men. If the VP keeps us late at a meeting and suggests buying pizza for everyone, she ought to graciously suggest something else if someone says "none for me, please, my doctor has me on a gluten-free diet". On the other hand, it would be gauche for someone to complain "oh, no, I had pizza last night".

If the VP suggests that a softball game would be great at the company picnic, and you don't like playing softball yourself, there's no reason to say that. Lots of other people like softball, and you can find something else to do there. But you ought to say something if you know that Joe in Accounting tears up whenever someone mentions softball ever since his son died in that freak batting cage accident. The VP doesn't want to be gauche either.

Edited at 2007-11-14 12:11 am UTC

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Graceful distinctions
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-13 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Another option is to establish, or borrow, some stock phrases indicating one's level of enthusiasm. Some examples include "If it pleases you" (for something that one would not find strongly attractive, but is willing to go along with) and "Only if it pleases you" (for something that one really does not want to do, but is willing to endure for the sake of someone else's substantial enjoyment). In particular, stock phrases are good for encoding in concise form long or complex strings of information that repeat themselves regularly, which makes them ideal for avoiding the kind of miscommunications that can repeat themselves every time someone suggests a restaurant or movie or whatever. Once the pattern has been spotted and worked out in detail, the solution can usually be summarized and applied to future situations. That's more work up front, but it saves a LOT of time and stress in the long run.

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Re: Graceful distinctions
[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-11-13 04:40 pm UTC (link)
::nods:: There are distinct emotional differences between "Sounds good," "Sure," and "We *could* do that." (Emphasis on the "could" signalling "sure it's an option, but, it's not my first choice.")

But... this is all hint culture.

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Re: Graceful distinctions
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-13 05:07 pm UTC (link)
No, it is an *interface* between Ask and Hint cultures. It is deliberately constructed and consciously applied, for the purpose of preventing an Ask person from hurting a Hint person's feelings by saying things like "Hell no, I don't want to go out tonight" and preventing a Hint person from obscuring information beyond an Ask person's ability to discern the answer. Two Ask people don't need this kind of encoding; they'll just belt out unvarnished opinions and be content with that. Two Hint people sharing the same H-frame won't be constructing things consciously, but rather gliding through a subtle exchange that they probably couldn't translate into plain language any more than most people could explain grammar contraptions. Two Hint people from *different* H-frames could benefit from encoding things purposely, though; it's not their usual style but it might be easier and less stressful than trying to figure out each other's frames.

Also note that there's *solid* information in a well-made encoding like this: contrast that with the fact that Hint groups can wind up Going to Abilene if they're too subtle for even other Hinters to parse their real feelings. That solidity is Asky. Conversely a well-made encoding is genteel, and it can vary in specificity depending on whether or not the designer wants its meaning to be graspable by random bystanders. (People who ordinarily favor encodings that a thoughtful stranger could parse may have an auxiliary set of highly obscure phrases for use in front of hostile observers.) That oblique angle is Hinty.

When you come to a language gap, it's frequently a good idea to build a bridge. That's what this is.

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Re: Graceful distinctions
[info]cyan_blue
2007-11-13 06:53 pm UTC (link)
Where can one read more about Hint cultures? I'm a northern Asker in the midst of southern Hinters, and I am trying desperately to learn the customs of Hintfolk, but as you say, a Hint person can sometimes obscure information beyond an Ask person's ability to discern the answer. I'm happy to follow foreign customs, but sometimes the nuances just are so subtle that they don't even ping my radar as existing. Is there any reading material that one could access that teaches what some common Hinter subtleties are?

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Re: Graceful distinctions... response to cyan_blue...
[info]ozarque
2007-11-13 07:17 pm UTC (link)
There was an intense discussion of Ask/Hint-culture language differences in this journal starting on October 20, 2007 -- at http://ozarque.livejournal.com/459123.html -- and continuing through October 31st, with many threads in which people explored the issue in depth.

If you've already read those posts, I apologize. If you haven't, they may be exactly what you're looking for. Some of the threads include detailed analyses of example dialogues by LJers from both cultures; there's also a link to another post+comments on the same topics.

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Re: Graceful distinctions... response to cyan_blue...
[info]cyan_blue
2007-11-13 07:45 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! I will take a look - it sounds like it will be very helpful.

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Re: Graceful distinctions
[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-11-14 01:32 am UTC (link)
I agree with your concept, but, I still think that, depending on the mechanism you're trying to use to be delicate, it can veer into hint culture. "If it pleases you" could also be read as trying to be gallant or romantic (depending on relationship) rather than encoding "not really keen on the idea, but, I'd go along with it." (I say that, in part, because about the only time I've seen anyone use anything approaching that phrasing *is* in the romantic sense.)

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Re: Graceful distinctions
[info]pperiwinkle
2007-11-13 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I have found it useful to say something along the lines of "Well, X is not my favorite thing, but I'm willing to go along for the pleasure of the company" or "X is not my favorite thing, but we live in a democratic society and I shall yield to the wisdom of the crowd."

It gives my feelings about X a polite airing without completely poo pooing X, introduces a opening for anyone else has similar feelings yet was reluctant to speak up, but also leaves space for X enthusiasts to gush about the wonder that is X.

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[info]blonde222
2007-11-13 05:40 pm UTC (link)
Just to bring the conversation back down to a really low, pedantic level, I was originally told about the Abilene Paradox by my OB professor at business school (who I believe had lived in Texas for a long time too!).... and she said that it was a picnic they all went off to have in Abilene. Which in some ways is even worse, because it wasn't even a sudden spur of the moment thing: they had to spend time preparing for the picnic and packing it in the car, and in all that time still nobody said a word.






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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-11-13 06:25 pm UTC (link)
I ran into a variation on this way back in childhood, because to have objected would be considered 'selfish', so that every door out of the paradox was thereby slammed shut unless you were willing to be the goat. Even though everyone was relieved that somebody spoke up; still, it wasn't your place to do so.

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[info]idealforcolors
2007-11-13 06:33 pm UTC (link)
It's awful when you get into a conversation and instead of saying "okay" and going to Abilene, or "I'd rather stay here" and thus being the person who ruins the outing to Abilene, everyone starts saying things like "well, I don't want to influence anyone's decision with my opinion, what do YOU think?" or "oh, I don't have a strong preference, what would you like to do?" and actually expressing any preference at ALL starts to seem like it would be rude. (This generally happens in groups of other women in their teens and twenties in my experience, not so much with men or my family.) After a few iterations of this, I tend to be the first to break and say, "Okay, to be honest, I don't really want to go. But if you all do, I'm happy to." And then if we're lucky, everyone says, "Okay, let's just stay here."

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[info]coraa
2007-11-13 06:37 pm UTC (link)
I am a dyed-in-the-wool Hinter, and my usual way out of the problem is to ask questions to try to determine whether the person actually wants to go or is just suggesting something. If someone suggests a restaurant, I mention that I haven't heard of it and ask what it's like, or ask if there's anything in particular they suggest getting; I can usually figure out from the response whether they're actually excited about going or if they're just suggesting something. If they're just suggesting something, I might at that point make a counter-offer. (If they do sound excited in their response, though, at that point I usually just go along with it -- though I might do so with a statement like, "If you want to give it a try, it's fine with me," to indicate that I'm feeling agreeable but am not, myself, hugely excited.)

It doesn't always work, though, so a coded response could be very useful. Particularly since, to a Hint person, saying a blunt, "No, I don't want to go," is extremely difficult -- even if you can tell that no one wants to go and everyone wishes that someone would say so!

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[info]cyan_blue
2007-11-13 06:43 pm UTC (link)
my usual way out of the problem is to ask questions to try to determine whether the person actually wants to go or is just suggesting something

That sounds like a useful heuristic...

I'm a northerner (Ask) trying to find my way around the norms of my more southern (Hint) chosen family. I'm constantly trying to perceive and understand the nuances of the hint language. It is definitely an uphill struggle, because sometimes it involves seeing what isn't easily visible, or not saying what seems perfectly clear and reasonable to say.

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[info]dpolicar
2007-11-13 06:57 pm UTC (link)
Add my name to the pile of folks who have evolved their private protocol for this. Mine is "Left to my own devices I wouldn't, but I'm willing to tag along."

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[info]karenkay
2007-11-13 07:56 pm UTC (link)
I'd first heard of The Abilene Paradox several years ago, when I was writing a manual on Conflict Resolution, but I'd forgotten all about it.

I recently had a situation in my family like this--we are 7 siblings with no living parents, so there is no authority, and we are all pretty agreeable. I was determined to act by true consensus. So I phoned each of my sibs and had a lengthy conversation, trying to ferret out their true opinion on the subject. It was an interesting process, and I do think I was able to get a straight opinion in a way I couldn't have except one-on-one.

So for the moment, at least, we aren't going to Abilene.:)

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-14 01:32 am UTC (link)
What manual is that? I'm working on some Grey School classes that touch on conflict resolution, and if yours is available I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about it.

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[info]karenkay
2007-11-14 01:34 am UTC (link)
It was a work-for-hire for some company whose name I no longer remember. I think that that's when I first came across the Abilene Paradox, but I don't think I actually used it in the course. I'm not sure, but I may have decided that it was the sort of thing that happens far more frequently at home than at work.

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[info]queenmaggie
2007-11-13 09:04 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me of what was considered an 'amusing anecdote' that a priest used as the basis of a sermon once....
As I recall, he was talking about an elderly couple that had lived together for 50 years, and every day, the husband would make the toast for breakfast, and he'd put the plate in front of his wife, with two toasted heels of the bread. And she ate it.

Finally, on their anniversary, when he put that plate in front of her, she blew up and ranted "Why do you always do this to me!? Why don't you ever think of someone other than yourself!? 50 years I've sat here and suffered, and eaten the dratted heels, and never once did you offer me the nice inside piece!"

And he blinked at her, and said, "But dear... the heels are my favorite part..."

It's meant to be a warning that you can't even rely on the golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") without thinking it through: that there's no one always right answer, you have to ask or find out about another person, or you're just assuming that you know what they'd like (or that they know what you'd like)

Come to think of it, I may have heard this story at a wedding....

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[info]mmegaera
2007-11-15 01:31 am UTC (link)
Why am I suddenly reminded of the O. Henry story The Gift of the Magi?

I wish we'd all had this ask/hint culture discussion back before I got my feelings hurt by a hinter who didn't just say no to something important to me, rather than letting me think she was going to do it and then making excuses instead. If she hadn't wanted to do it, she should have said so, hinter or no hinter, darnit. I'm an asker, and a not very observant one, and I'm still smarting from that one a couple of weeks later.

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[info]queenmaggie
2007-11-15 03:14 am UTC (link)
Sadly, I'll bet she thought that she had.
The difference in cultures is not something that you choose. One cannot say "no" there's no 'just' about it. It is a cruel and wrong thing to do... 'everyone knows that'.

It's like once when I had a little boy visiting from across the street, to play with my son. He walked into our house that was a mirror image of his, looked around, put his hands on his hips, and scornfullly said "This place is all wrong! why do you have the bedrooms on the wrong side?!"

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[info]mmegaera
2007-11-15 05:23 am UTC (link)
Sadly, I'll bet she thought that she had.

Well, when it got to the point where she noticed (and observed out loud) that I was obviously upset, she perhaps could have caught on.

It is a cruel and wrong thing to do... 'everyone knows that'.

I cannot be objective about this. I cannot but think that this is a cruel, wrong way to live. And to treat other people. Cultural conditioning or no cultural conditioning.

I like this person very much, but if she's not going to be honest with me, then I can't trust her. And that has nothing to do with cultural conditioning.

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[info]cyan_blue
2007-11-17 06:17 am UTC (link)
Being an Ask type among Hint types, I can well sympathize with your experiencing of that person as being dishonest; I have to struggle to not see my Hint-type dears ones that way at times, too.

I can tell, you, though, that (a) it has everything to do with cultural conditioning, and (b) she likely said something that in her own culture equated to a clear refusal, and that would have been understood as such by others in her culture.

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[info]mmegaera
2007-11-17 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I can tell, you, though, that (a) it has everything to do with cultural conditioning, and (b) she likely said something that in her own culture equated to a clear refusal, and that would have been understood as such by others in her culture.

That may very well be, but my cultural conditioning is equally as valid as hers, and therefore my hurt is every bit as valid as what she thought she did. Period.

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-13 10:41 pm UTC (link)
(Michael Farris)

"Lets all go and do X" and I don't want to do X very much but am willing to do X *as a favour to them* but don't want them to go around thinking that I *like* X."

I think I must be missing something here. This doesn't make any sense to me.

I've gone along on X's that I wasn't enthusiastic about because I liked being with the people (and a time or two enjoyed X despite myself, a time or two not). In no case did I consider my presence to be a favor to anyone else (again I don't think we've defined 'favor' and we probably can't, so I should shut up about it, you're right).

If neither X nor the company are reward enough I think the person needs to make it clear (as in spell it out) as in say "It's not my kind of thing, but I'll go as a favor to you."
I think I'd likely withdraw the offer of X in that case, but if I didn't, I'd prefer to know the other person is regarding X as a favor before going any further.

But my answers should in no way be regarded as mainstream US. My preferences from the US are hint, but that doesn't work where I live and I've adjusted accordingly. 'Ask' doesn't cover it either, I'd say Poland's favor culture is based on 'negotiate', you ask (usually, especially for specific favors) and hint (occasionally mostly determing whether you really want to ask) and are always ready to negotiate terms and conditions.

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[info]margvamp
2007-11-14 12:40 am UTC (link)
Closely related is what C. S. Lewis in THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS calls "the generous conflict illusion," in which each member of the group argues for someone else's supposed wishes instead of his or her own. With luck (from Screwtape's POV) they'll either get into a fight or end up doing something nobody wants to do. Whereas if each had politely advanced his or her own preferences, the matter could have been settled with courtesy and good humor.

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[info]eciklb
2007-11-14 03:51 am UTC (link)
How about, "the fantastic company is the important thing, but it *is* so lovely and cool here," said with a slightly wistful smile (i.e., in positive and even flattering terms, I'll go if it's what you guys want to do because I like being with you, but I'd really rather we stayed put).

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Fantastic company
[info]journeyrose
2007-11-15 03:27 am UTC (link)
is a good way to put it. I usually say, well I like the company and I'll tag along.

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-16 03:24 am UTC (link)
How about:

< leans back under shade tree, puts feet up >

"Y'all have fun."

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[info]takumashii
2007-11-14 04:48 am UTC (link)
In my own peer group I find that we usually avoid going to Abilene by waiting until an idea generates genuine enthusiasm. Ideas can be met with a practical-reasons refusal ("But they don't have any good vegetarian food") or silence or a non-committal approval ("Yeah, I guess we could do that", "That might be fun"); we're too Hint-Culture to say "I don't feel like doing that." But even if we say, "Sure, we could do that," we're likely to keep generating ideas until we get one that makes somebody say, "Yeah, that would be sweet!"

I feel like (for my peer group) saying things like "It's not my first choice, but I'll go if that's what you want to do" can put the person-who-wants-to-do-X in the position of feeling selfish and small, so we're much likelier to hint around it.

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-16 03:49 am UTC (link)
(bemusedoutsider)

This makes sense. In my family or social circles, the problem is matching the suggestor's ENERGY (if I can figure out what it really is). Especially if the suggestor is speaking in an energetic, enthusiastic manner.

So maybe ... in similar tone ... "Hey, do they have any good vegetarian restaurants in Abilene?" (When you're pretty sure there aren't any.)
That might lead to someone else saying... "No, but I know some great ones in Dallas."

That might sort of keep the energy at the same level, while pointing it in a more pleasing direction. And by the time everyone decides against a veg restaurant in Dallas, the energy might be spent, without actually saying "NO" to the original suggestor.

Alternatively, what about matching the suggestor's tone/energy with "Hm, what have you got in mind?"
Then when she says what she really wants (ice cream, a movie, just bored here) someone could suggest (in an appropriate, supportive tone) a more practical source.



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[info]akitrom
2007-11-14 06:34 pm UTC (link)
I'm thinking that this awkward situation is a failure on the part of the organizer / host. The host has some non-reciprocal authority, where offering up options is hard to differentiate from making recommendations.

So, the host / leader / boss can say: We could all drive up to Abeline, or we could just stay here. Which would people like to do?

I've directed a small musical ensemble, and I find myself saying things like: "We could go over this movement a couple more times, to get it cleaned up, but I gather we're getting a little frustrated with it. Would you --speaking only for yourself-- like to give it another try, or would you prefer we move on to the next movement right now?"

I've taught elementary school, where people aren't expected to have mature social habits, and the typical tactic is to have people vote anonymously (chits of paper, or a thumbs up / down without looking around).

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committee
[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-11-14 09:44 pm UTC (link)
In a volunteer organization where people actually vote on projects, an answer that works is "Sounds like a nice project, Babs. Let's appoint you chairman of a committee to do a feasibility study."

Or maybe: "I move we approve this project date unspecified, contingent on Babs bringing a list of volunteers pledged to do all the tasks."


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why
[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-11-14 09:57 pm UTC (link)
In a family or close social situation I have trouble with this. Maybe a key would be to find out WHY the person is initiating it. Does he really want to do it himself, or does he think someone else really wants it, or does he think someone needs to get out and have a change of food, or does he just think the party is getting dull so he's suggesting at random....?

As I heard the original 'Abilene' story, the point was that everyone was comfortable at home lazy under the shade trees, and going ANYWHERE was a bad idea. If going SOMEWHERE would be reasonable, and it's a choice between
1. home lazy
2. Abilene
3. somehwere else
4. somewhere else
5. home play a game
etc
then it might be easier to be tactful, because you can negotiate about all the different choices till the energy either settles on one or dissipates.

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-19 03:41 am UTC (link)
For an example of cheerful, functional 'hint culture', take a look at A. Greeley's IRISH LINEN and/or IRISH SILVER.

(bemusedoutsider)

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