ozarque: Linguistics; pragmatics; favors; recommended link....

ozarque (

ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-10-24 09:27:00

Linguistics; pragmatics; favors; recommended link....
My thanks to

sculpin for posting (in a comment) a link to a very useful discussion about asking for favors and responding to requests for favors -- at
http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 .

In this discussion, the favor is one of those "I'm going to be in town for a while -- could I stay at your place?" requests. I recommend reading both the post and the comments.

(Post a new comment)

idiotgrrl
2007-10-24 03:49 pm UTC (link)

I love the comment that defines the difference between Ask Culture and Guess Culture. I LOATHE Guess Culture because you're always being judged negatively for not making the right responses to something you didn't even know was going on, for not reading people's minds (called 'thoughtlessness' by my mother, who had no idea how much thought went into trying to figure out such situations), and you never f!@#ing know where you stand! (Yes. I'm cussing. A nice LOL is cussing.)

My take on the entire situation?

#1: do NOT lie. Ever. Do not give a false impression. Miss Manners is right: Just! Say! No!

#2: the commenter who said that the would-be guest has no idea Wifey didn't like her was dead on the money. How can you know that if people don't tell you? "Awww... but that would hurt her FEELings! We can't do that, so we'll just store up grievances and then dump the entire load on her all at once, all about her sins past and present." Believe me. It happens. "But she should have known - it's obvious - anyone would know that..."

Sorry. Caught me in a mood I didn't know was there.

Pat, prying the Hot Button back up to the Off position.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	starcat_jewel 2007-10-24 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	What She Said, in cards and spades. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2007-10-24 09:12 pm UTC (link)

(Michael Farris)

First, I'm a little uncomfortable with the 'culture' label (I know it's convenient, but it rankles my social scientist sensibilities). If anything (since both patterns occur within US culture) I'd call them 'patterns of interaction' (yes, too long) or just 'asking' and 'guessing'.

Also, just as 'ask' and 'guess' are heuristic labels, the descriptive characterizations offered are abstractions of the extremes. In reality, in a culture with no overall strong preference for one or the other, virtually everybody is somewhere in the middle and does both depending on what seems appropriate at the time.

When one strategy is clearly very dominant in a society there's no problem. Most members of cultures that prefer guessing can detect a possible indirect request ten moves ahead of it actually appearing and head it off (or offer to meet it) before it's ever hinted at. In cultures that prefer asking, most people develop thick skins and are used to refusal (and may learn to ignore it which can cause different problems). Again, it's cultures with no clear overall preference that run into the biggest problems.

That said, it's my impression that in most of the world 'guessing' is far more common than 'asking' and people from those traditions might choose different labels such as 'tactful' and 'tactless' or 'diplomatic' and 'brazen' or even 'polite' and 'rude'.

I current live in a _strong_ asking culture (Poland) where the initial answer to requests depends more on position than personal predilictions, feasibility or other considerations. If you ask one of your best friends they have to say yes (and then may falter, which as a friend you're supposed to overlook). Anyone higher in status or in an official position will almost give 'no' as the first answer, which doesn't mean 'no' at all, it means 'convince me' or 'let's negotiate').

(Reply to this)(Parent)

beckyzoole
2007-10-24 09:06 pm UTC (link)

OH YES!

Guess Culture drives me batty. What makes it worse is that the subtleties differ from person to person, so that even if I figure out what a specific "hint" means, I still have no clue if it means the same thing when another person says it.

My ex in-laws were strongly Guess. The part about this that actively irritated me every single time I was at their house was that they assumed I was Guess too, so they refused to take what I said at face value: "No thank you, I'm full" must mean I want another serving of potatoes, and "I don't want to have children until I graduate college" must mean I have a secret disease/defect that's affecting my fertility. Drove. Me. Nuts.

I think that Ozark culture must be more Guess than the American mainstream is, based on

ozarque's descriptions of how to let your neighbor know their cows are in your yard, and so forth.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sculpin
2007-10-24 10:14 pm UTC (link)

Ooooh. My loudest in-laws are fairly Guess, and it can drive me up the flippin' wall. The constant social chirping and chivvying, sheesh. They've managed generally to figure out that I am a different animal, but they've yet to get that there are circumstances in which they'd be more successful if they dealt with me on my terms. (For instance, if they want me to do a significant favor. Just to tie it all back together.) And why should they? The unspoken net of shared expectations says that I have to do all the bending, being younger and female. If only I were a good and proper person, like them, I'd understand and obey.

That's what makes me craziest about Guess Culture: what happens when you run some power relationships through it. That "tight net of shared expectations" isn't so likely to be neutral. When it's expected that the ladies do all the housework and Uncle Joe's same-sex partner is never mentioned, seems to me that the net may go from tight to downright strangling. Somebody's getting screwed. If that's you, and you try to negotiate your way out of it, you may simply demonstrate that you don't know how things are done -- or worse, you don't care.

Way back in the day, my husband and I had a conversation about what drives us nutsiest. For him, it was mind-reading. No coincidence, I think, that he chose someone as Asky as me.

Here, Beckyzoole, you might have an expert opinion on this: it's my experience that Guess people tend to be fairly insular and family-oriented, while Ask people tend more to be strongly oriented toward their friends and family of choice. Seems to me that if you're strongly Guess, especially in an Ask or mixed society, you've got a potential problem: not everybody's going to share your expectations. Those expectations can be so detailed and subtle that you'd pretty well have to be raised in them to know what they are. In a Guess family context, where everybody knows the rules, they can relax. In a friend context, they'll always be bumping up against people who, in their view, don't know to act politely. How aggravating. Better to withdraw to the family compound.

	sculpin 2007-10-24 06:22 pm UTC (link)
	It seems to me -- and I'd like to know what other folks think of this -- that Ask vs Guess maps pretty well to Negotiated Commitment vs Inherited Obligation. When I'm Asking, I'm explicitly negotiating. Meanwhile, the "tight net of shared expectations" sounds to me very much like the Obligation that everyone in an IO family understands (or is painfully made to understand). (Reply to this)(Thread)

	wolfangel78 2007-10-24 11:27 pm UTC (link)
	My family tends to both IO and Ask, so the mapping is at best imperfect. But it's not the kind of IO that your family seems to have. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

	selki 2007-10-25 11:39 pm UTC (link)
	Hi, stopping by from a discussion on nosebeepbear's journal. I think the Ask v. Guess discussion is interesting, but I would not say Asking is negotiating. Asking "But why?" or "But why not?" after one gets an unfavorable Answer would strike me as an attempt (in many cases) to begin negotiating. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Response to singingnettle... ozarque 2007-10-24 06:39 pm UTC (link)
	Of course. I'd be pleased to be on your friends list. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

	undauntra 2007-10-25 01:27 am UTC (link)
	I like to title my friends page "Journals I Read". It feels so much more accurate. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

	(Anonymous) 2007-10-24 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	(Michael Farris) I thought it was interesting that (unless I missed it) the wife didn't comment at all and all her opinions were filtered thru hubby. I had the impression that 'her' opposition to the visit wasn't entirely 'hers' (but I could be wrong). (Reply to this)(Parent)

	fibermom 2007-10-24 09:26 pm UTC (link)
	The Ask and Guess distiction was interesting, but the really horrifying thing is the likelihood that the subject of the controversy will by now have heard about it and read the post. She will know that these people never really liked her, even though she thought they were friends, and that LOTS of people have debated whether she is manipulative or rude or clueless or what. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2007-10-24 09:31 pm UTC (link)
	(Michael Farris) Yes, and by the end everything she did was perceived in the worst manner possible. The whole thing serves as a handy example of the process of 'demonization', by the end I was regretting I didn't have a place in New York she could crash at. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

	fibermom 2007-10-25 11:30 am UTC (link)
	It's completely okay in my circle, too. I'm thinking that part of the problem is that this woman thought they were friends and that they liked her, when really they didn't.So she was applying the "friends" section of the manners code and they were not. If they've been pretending to be her friends, that's not her fault. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	selki 2007-10-25 11:41 pm UTC (link)
	(stopping by from nosebeepbear's journal) Actually, I'd rather have folks crash at my place than go pick them up at the airport. Especially any time near rush hour. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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