ozarque: Linguistics; pragmatics; favors....

ozarque (

ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-10-20 10:31:00

Linguistics; pragmatics; favors....
An LJ-er who prefers to stay anonymous has e-mailed me to ask for a discussion of the rules for requesting favors and responding to such requests, with the following parameters:

1. She's not referring to major items like "Could you loan me five hundred dollars?" or "Could I leave my kids at your house for a week?" -- just requests for routine favors like giving someone a ride to the airport or picking up someone's prescription at a pharmacy ... things that the asker would ordinarily do for himself/herself, but for some reason isn't able (or doesn't feel able) to do in this instance.

2. Her primary interest isn't in how we decide whether to say yes or no to a request for a favor but in questions about how the yes or no should be worded. For example....

a.
Should you make sure that the person asking for the favor knows exactly how much of a hardship it will be for you to do the favor? Is making that clear to the asker rude ... is it guilt-tripping?

b.
Suppose the request is for something that would be easy or trivial for the asker but would be hard for you to do: Should you explain that to the asker, or it is better to say "No. I'm sorry; I can't do that for you" and let it go at that unless the asker demands an explanation?

c.
Are there different sets of rules when the asker is (a) a friend, (b) a lover, (c) a spouse/partner, (d) a parent, (e) a child?

d.
Are there ways to word a refusal that will make it less likely to cause hard feelings?

e.
How do you handle it if you say no and the person argues with you about your refusal?

You will have noticed that there's a missing parameter here. The Favors Grammar is going to be different from one language to another, one dialect to another, one culture to another ... and so on. My guess is that if I asked for these things to be specified, the answer would be roughly "mainstream American English." However, because it seems to me that the discussion would be even more interesting if we had information about the Favors Grammar for a variety of different languages and dialects and cultures and subcultures, I didn't ask.

Over to you; feel free to propose additional questions...

================================
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mbumby
2007-10-20 03:59 pm UTC (link)

(a) If it is a hassle, but one you gladly take on (because, for example, you love the person) then you probably shouldn't mention the hardship unless they ask. If the relationship is more casual, say a co-worker, and will cost you time or inconvenience you drastically, it is probably appropriate to say *blink* "you do realize that that is _not_ on my way home" or whatever. If the person pushes, you can then go on to say "and I won't be able to have dinner ready for my kids if I do it..." *as long as what you're saying is honest*. So probably don't bring it up at first. But if their requests turn into a habit, they're upping the ante, and you can mention the difficulties sooner.

(b) If the person really cannot do it, and you can, then, depending on how you feel about the person you may choose to do it, and probably shouldn't mention the hassle-factor. If the person is lazy as a stick, healthy, and really _can_ do it easily, but is just trying to take advantage of you, it's appropriate to say "no". Probably just leave it at that unless they push -- because you're likely to burn the bridge of any potential good feelings if you tell them you know they're lazy as a stick and taking advantage of you.

(c) Oh yes, the rules vary a lot. Probably more as to whether or not you should do the favor than what you tell them about why you won't, but there are variances there. With friends, lovers & spouses/partners there's probably a lot of give and take, and you may well ask them occasionally for things that are inconvenient for them, so unless this is very one-sided probably just do it and do not mention the hassle factor. With parents and children it depends a great deal on what you think they'll understand. A 5-year-old might not understand and probably wouldn't remember why you didn't do it. The same for a parent suffering dementia. A mentally and physically sound parent might be trying to play emotional/mental games on one, and those should be nipped in the bud. "I know what you're doing and it won't work -- here are a few reasons why what you asked didn't make sense" (perhaps followed up with -- "but after _you_ do that I'll be happy to come by for dinner".) If a child has reached the point where they understand consequences and actually have priorities outside of themselves, it's probably important to be more complete in explaining why you're not doing something -- to help them understand better and give them a better grounding in reality.

(d) Of course. My personal philosophy is to be honest, but still there's a great difference between saying "you're a soul-sucking good-for-nothing and I wouldn't do that for you if it wasn't out of my way and your life depended on it" and "I'm sorry -- I had 3 other things planned for today, they're on the other side of town, and I'll be out until 2am, and the store will be closed before I'm free." If it's a person who doesn't ask often, who doesn't ask unless it's really important, and you really can't, but otherwise would have been willing to go out of your way for, then you might want to include "I would be happy to, but just not today" or similar.

(e) *smile that doesn't reach the eyes pasted on* "I'm sorry, I thought you were _asking_ me to do you a favor, not _telling_ me to."

(Reply to this)

jenett
2007-10-20 04:16 pm UTC (link)

a.
It depends a bit on my relationship to them. With close friends, I tend to do "I can give you X hours this week to help with stuff: if we do this, that's going to be as much as I can do for right now." or "I can do X for you, but it has to be Monday or Thursday."

With less-close people, I usually bring it up only if it's in conflict with something they've asked me to do or that is also important to them. ("I could do that, but I'd have to let [other thing you care about] go this week to make time with it") or just give them a "Sorry, that won't be possible."

I've also pretty overtly clear with friends about what they should feel free to ask for (I have two friends who don't drive who have open invites to ask me. If I can't do it, or I'm booked on the other side of town, I'll tell them, and we can look at other options. But it's all out in the open.)

b.
Again, depends on the friendship. Closer people will often know why it's a problem that week anyway. More distant people, or people I'm not feeling as much general give and take in the relationship with will often get the "Sorry, can't do that."

c.
Different rule sets: Yep. They're mostly about give and take in the relationship. The give and take doesn't have to be about the same things (I give lots of rides, which are relatively easy for me. My friends who have more disposable cash, feed me foods that would be a serious luxury for me. We all consider this equitable because the actual 'how hard it is for us' is about the same.)

I tend to explicitly negotiate differences in friendship (and group interaction, and partnership - though my track record on that one is not so good.) No kids, and my remaining living parent is 1500 miles away, so it doesn't come up terribly often. (And in that case, I tend to default to what she prefers, because it's usually not a big deal for me.)

d.
Giving options or information. "I'm really sorry. I can't do that on [day]. I might be able to help on [other day]." "I'm sorry, I can't do that on such short notice; if you give me a day or two next time, I might be able to do more next time." "I can do that, but only if you're okay with it being very early before work." The other person then gets to make up their mind.

e.
Arguments about refusal tend to drop someone in terms of my personal respect. I'm less likely to go out of my way for them in future. (I don't do this all at once: one argument about something isn't going to change things drastically. But I do start paying attention to the patterns.) I will go *far* out of my way, cheerfully, whenever I can, for friends who respect me and my time, and when I need to say now. I will go far less out of my way, and more grudgingly, with people who expect it, or who expect they have a demand on my time.

I suspect some of this was programmed in me by the way my family used to handle scheduling: I was born when my siblings were 15 and 16. The first three people with things on the calendar (including if someone needed to be driven somewhere) got to go do those things. The last one took care of me. I think it helped everyone be clear about booking time for themselves in advance. (And 'I must do this for school/work' got priority over 'I want to do this for fun', but my understanding was that most of the fun stuff worked out fine too.) It did indoctrinate me in the idea that clear communication about expectations for time helps a lot.

(Reply to this)

geojlc
2007-10-20 04:24 pm UTC (link)

This is an interesting set of questions. I look forward to reading the responses!

When I first ready the post, I assumed that it was about LJ requests for help (and yes, I have friends who request things like last minute child care or airport rides on LJ). Then I realized that the points make more sense in either a face to face situation or a phone conversation... If I get an email or LJ call for help, it's much easier to craft a negative response where I can have time to think about the answer and edit my words. :-)

I have to start by saying that, unless I really can't, I tend to help people with their requests. Part of that is that I like helping people, part of it is that I feel I'm paying forward help I have been given in the past, and a small part of me is hopes that if I help now, friends will be there for me in the future when I need help.

I do think there is a different set of rules between my friends, my spouse, and my parents (I don't have kids). I am much more likely to say yes without equivocation to my husband or parents than I am to friends. I have to live with my husband, and life is so much better when we help each other. He is also much more likely to help me with requests in the future if he knows I'm willing to help him. As for my parents, I know how much work they spent doing things for me as I was growing up. I don't help them with requests out of a feeling of debt so much as a feeling of respect. It's not exactly right, but I think that's an okay way to express the feeling.

In my friend category, there's also a difference between how I handle requests from good friends vs acquaintances (people I know and like but don't spend a lot of time with). If a someone asks me to watch their child, I'm more likely to tell a friend yes, even if it is slightly inconvenient. If I am busy or it's inconvenient, I'm more likely to tell an acquaintance that I'm not available.

I think that there are ways of saying no that are nicer than others. If it's someone I don't know well, I'll just tell them I'm busy and can't. If they push me, then I'll give specifics. And I'm busy enough that I can give good specifics! If it's someone I know well, I might tell them to keep me on a backup list and I'll help if they can't find anyone else. I don't like to guilt trip people, so I only do the backup thing (or tell people long reasons of why it would be hard) only if I want to say yes but life is really busy at the moment.

I don't think I've ever had anyone argue with me about saying no, but most of my friends know I don't say no unless I can't.

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	Response to geojlc... ozarque 2007-10-20 06:04 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for your comment. I'm very interested in how the set of rules that will be constructed over the course of this discussion does apply online. I'm interested in whether there's an online Favors Grammar and a separate offline one; if so, I'm interested in how they differ. (Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2007-10-20 04:45 pm UTC (link)

(Michael Farris)

"Are there different sets of rules when the asker is (a) a friend, (b) a lover, (c) a spouse/partner, (d) a parent, (e) a child?"

For me. Yes. There's an intersecting matrix of the closer you are to the person, generally the more interested you are in doing favors for them but don't have to go into special explanations when you can't (since they know your situation). "Sorry, department meeting." vs "Sorry, I would, but I have a department meeting at that time and I can't get out of it." (presuming all that's true).

"Should you make sure that the person asking for the favor knows exactly how much of a hardship it will be for you to do the favor? Is making that clear to the asker rude ... is it guilt-tripping?"

I'm reminded of the old maxim 'don't lend money that you would mind not getting back'. For me, if the favor is worth doing it's worth not making a fuss over it. If I do a favor, it's usually because I want to do something nice for the asker. If for whatever reason I want the person to know what a hardship it is, I might do some 'mental' planning in front of them, ostensibly talking to myself: "Let's see, I could let my first class out early and cancel my office hours and my afternoon class. I'll call the taxi from home because that's closer to the airport..."

"Suppose the request is for something that would be easy or trivial for the asker but would be hard for you to do: Should you explain that to the asker, or it is better to say "No. I'm sorry; I can't do that for you" and let it go at that unless the asker demands an explanation?"

If I suspect that's the case I'd ask "And why can't you do it?" (slightly more diplomatically, maybe "And you can't do this, because ..." and if the explanation satisfies me, then I might do it (again depending on the relationship).

"Are there ways to word a refusal that will make it less likely to cause hard feelings?"

The standard rule of American politeness is that anytime you have to turn down a request it's polite to indicate some regret* about it. "I'm sorry, but I really can't." or "I'd like to, but I'm afraid I can't this time." Or, alternately suggesting alternate plans of action (indicating your willingness to help in some way) "Do you want me to ask John? He has a car and might be willing if you chip in for gas..."
If a person will have hard feelings after you've met the cultural standards for polite refusal then they'll probably have hard feelings sooner or later no matter what you do, might as well get it over with sooner rather than later.

"How do you handle it if you say no and the person argues with you about your refusal?"

My old standby is "Excuse me?" and then refuse to understand anything they say. "Could you repeat that?", "I didn't quite get it that time." It usually brings unwanted interactions to a quick end. A boring baroque response will probably do the same.
If I want to be more abrupt there's always "I've already told you my answer." And I'm not above feigning a reason I have to leave the person's presence that very instant.

"However, because it seems to me that the discussion would be even more interesting if we had information about the Favors Grammar for a variety of different languages and dialects and cultures and subcultures, I didn't ask."

*I'll give you one bit of information anyway. In Poland, it's _not_ required to indicate regret when giving someone disappointing news: "No, I won't look for it,", "You can't go in there!", "Wer'e closing, you have to leave now," are all things you're liable to hear. There _might_ be some softening if preceded by "Proszę Pana!" (Please Sir!) but no effort is expended in softening the tone, IME.
This caused me to get into a lot of arguments and undignified scenes until I figured out that particular rule.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Sound familiar....

maggieno
2007-10-20 09:23 pm UTC (link)

"*I'll give you one bit of information anyway. In Poland, it's _not_ required to indicate regret when giving someone disappointing news...There _might_ be some softening if preceded by "Proszę Pana!" (Please Sir!) but no effort is expended in softening the tone, IME. This caused me to get into a lot of arguments and undignified scenes until I figured out that particular rule."

Oh, this sounds familiar! My grandmother (gentry family from a village between Turin and Warsaw) complained a lot about Americans and their insistence on using "Please" even in an impersonal situation. "As if they really care," was her complaint; and as for all the "I'm sorry" social apologies, she was quite irritated ("As if it makes a difference -- or excuses them." Only making good on a mistake was respectable for her.)

Growing up in households where old world rules held sway make for some awkward times for us kids when we started our social lives at school (we weren't really allowed to play with kids outside our ethnicity -- not that there were many around where we lived.) Even after 40 years away from the old neighborhoods and the family hearth, I still find myself fumbling in my responses to the situations cited in Ozarque's post -- I'm deemed too abrupt or too effusive with my excuses/explanations. My brother and cousins, too.

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Re: Sound familiar.... - (Anonymous), 2007-10-20 09:48 pm UTC (Expand)

cbpotts
2007-10-20 05:03 pm UTC (link)

This has been a huge life issue for me since I stopped 'working outside' and became a full time writer: family and friends assumed that I had this excess of free time and could drop anything at the least bit of notice to offer assistance/watch children/run errands/talk about their day.

I'm not as subtle as you or many of your readers/comment writers. I just took on the power of "No." "No, I can't drive you to the store right now." "No, this is not a good time to talk" "No, you can't leave the baby here." I was pretty aggressive with this for about six weeks, which set the tone -- when I was working, I was working, and that time is simply not available for other things. I protect my time in much the same way I protect my children: I can count the number of people I trust with either on one hand and still have fingers left.

That being said, whenever possible, I tend to be generous to a fault. Many many people have helped me along the way, and so now I feel obligated to help others: I know what it's like to not have the $5 for diapers, and thankfully I'm in a position where getting $5 for diapers is easy. So I buy the diapers, drop them off, and we don't talk about it.

I've got limits: there's a dollar amount I won't go past without discussing it with my husband -- that moves into the area of major purchase and we always discuss those -- and when requests seem like they'll eat up a lot of time, I'll find a way to help the person get their need met without me doing the need meeting.

Most people I know are very proud and would never, ever ask unless they were really pressed: I try to maintain my relationships by anticipating and helping meet needs before they arise (IE If I see kid's coats on sale, I might 'accidentally' buy one in the wrong size that my daughter's friend has her eyes on -- and whoops, lost the receipt, here you go) or dropping off bags of groceries. Generally, these things are not talked about -- and when that haunch o' venison shows up on my doorstep one crisp fall morning, well, we don't talk about that either.

I've never had a refusal countered since I moved up here. One couple did withdraw their friendship after I pointed out that I could not drive 4 hours and 200 miles on a two hour notice for them, but they had additional life issues that made me think that relationship was not going to endure anyway.

When my Mother asks for something, generally, she gets it. She doesn't ask often, so if it's at all possible, I make it happen. My kids are little: it's not a favor asking thing yet: we'll see how that arises when we get to it.

Lovers: Lovers are strange. For me, giving is a part of the joy: being taken for granted is when the relationship is falling apart. I can't comment adequately here without dominating your LJ at lenght and probably being more boring than I already am.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	redbird 2007-10-20 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	Giving can be enough part of the pleasure that I have to be careful: it's not a kindness to buy people gifts they neither need nor want. I think I've mostly done pretty well in recent years. [And yes, this is decidedly tangential to what Ozarque asked about.] (Reply to this)(Parent)

leora
2007-10-23 02:24 am UTC (link)

This sounds a lot like the way I like things to work. I am often quite pleased to do friends various favors that I am capable of, but often become uncomfortable if they mention it or thank me for it. It seems weird, but I can still tell who appreciates things I do and who is taking me for granted, and they will do various things for me as well. But making a big fuss out of a favor makes me often regret having done it in the first place.

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hilleviw
2007-10-20 05:11 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. I suppose I think a whole variety of sets of situations are conflated in this set of questions, which need to be treated differently.

For instance: as a disabled person, there are "favors" I often have to request, which might be considered simple politenesses to many people, but which make or break my ability to participate in the world. Little things, from asking strangers to retrieve things for me from the top shelf in a supermarket, to holding a door for me when one hand is using the cane to support me, and the other hand is occupied by carrying something. I don't use any particular structure for these requests, other than making sure that please and thank you are involved.

Bigger things are needed too, like recruiting carrying assistance if I have to be at a buffet (I never choose to put myself in that situation, because one-handed tray carrying + arthritic hands = disaster recipe), or asking someone to give up a seat for me at a social event, because my body doesn't tolerate standing still (walking is fine, sitting is fine, standing is not). In those situations, I often preface my request with "I'm sorry, but I'm really unable to X, would you mind Y?" And if the person proceeds to look aghast (which happens more often than one would suppose), to quickly follow with "I understand completely, thank you for considering it" before asking someone else. Also, sometimes those requests will be broached more broadly - to a group of people - so as to avoid anyone feeling put on the spot.

If I am the requestee rather than the requestor in those types of situations, I want to hear please, and thank you, and to hear a tone which doesn't sound entitled.

Requests of or from friends are entirely different, and within that category I'd differentiate between rare-requestors and frequent-requestors, as well as between people who are chosen-family and people who are little more than acquaintances.

And family...there's a whole package of "ands and buts" for that context.

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	cbpotts 2007-10-20 06:35 pm UTC (link)
	You see, I don't consider any of that 'asking favors' -- that's manners, plain and simple: if you can't reach something, and I can, it's inherent on me to reach it for you, whether we're bosom buddies or, as is the reality, we don't know each other at all. And people say no? Let me jump upon them for you. That is not acceptable behavior. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

	Response to hilleviw.... ozarque 2007-10-24 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	You are of course right that many different situations are being lumped together in the post and in the questions. I'll try to sort them out and tackle them in a reasonably organized fashion. (Reply to this)(Parent)