ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-10-11 08:11:00
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Being "math-numb"...
I went googling, looking for the math equivalent of "dyslexia" to name my learning disability, and didn't find it. The accepted equivalent seems to be "dyscalculia," but that one doesn't fit me; the problems I have don't include most of the items listed as symptomatic of dyscalculia. The only ones on the list [Wikipedia's list, for example, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia] that apply to me are these two:

1. Having a poor sense of direction (i.e., north, south, east, and west), potentially even with a compass.

2. Having difficulty mentally estimating the measurement of an object or distance (e.g., whether something is 10 or 20 feet away).

[And I have no idea what that "even with a compass" bit might mean. I have no more internal sense of where north is when I'm holding a compass than when I'm not, but I certainly know how to use the compass to go in whatever direction I need to go.]

The word "dysmathia," which I had been using in a tentative fashion, turned out not to work either; it's a word already in use and means a general inability to learn, which also doesn't apply to me. I have no trouble learning things -- even very complicated things like foreign languages, or very boring things I don't especially want to learn -- as long as they don't involve mathematics,

So I chose "math-numb," -- for its analogy with "color-blind" and "tone-deaf," and because for me there is an actual physical sensation associated with the problem, and I perceive that sensation as numbness. I have the same difficulty understanding and explaining why two statistical statements are different that a person who is tone-deaf has explaining why two musical intervals [pairs of musical notes] are different. If someone played two musical intervals for me and asked me to explain how they were different, and I didn't know the answer, I would know how to figure out the answer. With two statistical statements, I don't know the answer, I have no idea how I would go about figuring out the answer, and when I rummage around in my head searching for clues to the answer all I get is that sensation of numbness, as if the neurons and neuronal connections needed were either atrophied or missing.

My first memories of this problem go way back. I was in second grade, which means it was roughly 1942, and we were working on subtraction. In those days, we kids would go to the blackboard as a group to solve subtraction problems the teacher had already written on the board, go back to our desks, and then be sent to the board one at a time to explain to the teacher and the class how we had arrived at our answer.

I always had the right answers to my subtraction problems, but I never got credit for my answers. The other kids would stand at the board talking about "taking away" this and "taking away" that, and there was something they threw in now and then about "borrowing" some number or numbers, and the teacher would say things like "Very good! That's right." Me? When I was supposed to subtract 22 from 36, I would explain my answer by saying "2 and 4 are 6, and 2 and 1 are 3, so the answer is 14." And the teacher would say "Wrong! You're supposed to be subtracting!" And an extra page of subtraction problems would be added to my homework. It didn't help; to this day, I can only subtract by adding.

As for those horrible word problems where one train leaves a station at a certain time on one track and another train leaves a different station at a certain time on a different track and you're supposed to figure out when they'd pass each other .... Or those terrifying sentences like [info]nfnitperplexity's "Though Hare is only twice as likely to win as Tortoise, his odds of winning are four times better"... Even under penalty of death, I couldn't make sense of those items.

This has been such a source of frustration to me, all my life long, that I can't even begin to describe it adequately. It has provided readers of my science fiction novels with many hilarious moments, when they spotted math errors that even young children wouldn't be likely to make. In course after course -- especially in linguistics -- I've had to find ways to work around it, and those work-arounds tend to be weird in the extreme. [Like converting all the phonemes of English on spectrograms to a set of squares on a graph, assigning the squares numerical values signifying their degree of darkness, and memorizing the set of numbers for each one, so that I'd be able to pass the final in acoustic phonetics, for example. It worked; I not only passed, I was the first person to read the spectrogram and get the correct answer. But that's truly weird.] I've managed, but I would so much rather just be able to do the math, the way other people do! I am constantly needing math skills in my work and in my research, and I am forever finding myself unable even to figure out how to ask coherent questions about what I need to know.

The one and only good thing about having grown up with this problem is that it gave me a vivid personal understanding of the situations that some of my students faced with learning disabilities of their own. I think it made me a better teacher; it certainly made me a more patient one, and more willing to listen.


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[info]indefatigable42
2007-10-11 01:22 pm UTC (link)
Your description of doing subtraction in school struck a chord with me -- I had a second-grade teacher who would fling around the jargon without really explaining what it meant. When the other kids were 'carrying' numbers in an addition or subtraction problem, I was still asking the teacher what 'carrying' was. She said something like 'follow along, you'll get it'. I didn't, and I felt like an idiot. In retrospect I'm sure that the other kids were just mimicking what she did without really understanding it; I wanted to understand before I could do it.

After a year of that I was quite math-phobic until I was a teenager, to the point where I would just freeze up if I looked at math problems on paper.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

borrowing and carrying - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-10-12 12:05 am UTC (Expand)
Re: borrowing and carrying - [info]filkferengi, 2007-10-17 02:48 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nellorat
2007-10-11 01:22 pm UTC (link)
You'd know better than I, but I wonder if this is a deep-seated fear of numbers, which does indeed create an inability to learn, rather than the kind of thing that is usually called a learning disability. Your 2nd-grade account says to me that you were indeed quite clever with numbers (or how would you get the 1 and 4 to add?), but it wasn't in a standard way, so your teacher gave you the idea that you were a loser. Numbness could well be fear. Coming from second grade, and reinforced by numbness just as panic attacks are self-reinforcing, it could be very, very deep by now.

Just a thought. I'm impressed by your work-arounds.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pthalogreen, 2007-10-12 12:49 pm UTC (Expand)
OT socially awkward situation - (Anonymous), 2007-10-12 08:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: OT socially awkward situation... response to bemusedoutsider... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-13 12:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to nellorat... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-12 01:05 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sunfell
2007-10-11 01:25 pm UTC (link)
That's funny- I solve math problems the same way you did. And I didn't do too well in math in school, either. They had a very rigid system for problem solving- if you thought outside the box, you were 'wrong' even if you were actually right. I wonder how many promising kids they've crushed because of that?

I had a phobia of math for a very long time. Part of that I can blame on my mother passing on her bad attitude (or fears) to me. She hated helping me with math home work. I never got past Algebra II, but ended up doing stuff involving calculus in my job.

I think that I could tackle math- even advanced stuff today, if I took a course, because I've grown to understand how some of it works. Being a systems geek, it's simply another system- or another language. The symbols are still intimidating, but I've found that I'm not as intimidated by them as I used to be. I still see math as my major weak spot, but I am no longer afraid of it. Heck, it's fun to do percentages in my head when prowling the sales racks- something I always had problems with in school. Not any more.

So, I don't have dyscalculia. I always know 'where' I am (I'm facing northwest right now!), don't stay 'lost' for long, love maps, and am pretty good at estimating distances, even though I do not have any depth perception at all because my visual cortex is wired differently due to my albinism. The only time I did have problems was in Springfield IL, which was totally flat, and had few landmarks. I had to use the sun to navigate.

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[info]kightp
2007-10-11 01:27 pm UTC (link)
Yes, that, exactly.

Except that in my own case, real-world "math" doesn't stymie me: I have an inerrant sense of "north," even in strange locales, can find my way around with or without a map and am very good at estimating measurements, etc. by eyeballing things. I do famously well on those test questions that involve spatial relationships - looking at an unfolded figure and understanding how it would look folded up, for instance.

It's the math itself - even, really, basic arithmetic - that trips me up. I look at numbers and they swim around in my head, refusing to do what other people tell me they do. I can add and subtract, just barely, and multiply smallish numbers, but that's all due to the rote memorization of times tables that was in vogue when I was a schoolchild. Beyond that I'm stumped; even with a calculator I have to look up how to do percentages every single time; if I need to convert the 12-hour clock to the 24-hour version, I have to count on my fingers.

It's not that I didn't try or pay attention in school; I did, to the point of tearful frustration. There's simply something in my brain that profoundly does not get it.

My partner has a master's degree in mathematics. He comes in very handy.

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(no subject) - [info]loligo, 2007-10-11 01:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mamadeb, 2007-10-11 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kightp, 2007-10-11 04:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2007-10-11 01:28 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me you worked out a perfectly acceptable (mathematically correct) way of subtracting. It's truly unfortunate that at the time you were going to school, there was only one acceptable algorithm for explaining subtraction.

I'm impressed with your spectrogram work-around.

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(no subject) - [info]magid, 2007-10-11 01:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-10-11 02:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2007-10-11 03:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-10-11 04:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-10-11 06:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2007-10-13 01:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-10-13 06:18 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nancylebov
2007-10-11 01:33 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if this will help at all, but I remember the moment when I realized that word problems required translation rather than direct understanding.

I mean, I thought I was supposed to understand the mathematical situation as easily as I could understand an ordinary story. Instead, I was supposed to ignore the pointlessness and meaninglessness of the whole thing (I still feel that the real world doesn't present problems the same way word problems do) and translate the numberish statements into arithmetic and/or algebra, then do a problem.

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(no subject) - [info]indefatigable42, 2007-10-11 01:37 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]loligo
2007-10-11 01:33 pm UTC (link)
Fascinating! It's strange to me to see the direction, orientation, and distance estimation items on there, though, because I think of those as being completely different from math. I am excellent at math (I was a teaching assistant for a graduate-level statistics course, for example), but I am *terrible* at those three items. I can't tell right from left without taking a moment to wiggle my hands around and remind myself which one I write with, and I often substitute "right" for "left" when I'm giving directions to someone, I think because of the "right"="correct" link. I have no sense at all of north, etc.; if there's water anywhere around, I tend to call that direction "west" and I have trouble letting go of that when the map corrects me. And I can't estimate distances -- in fact, a few days ago I almost broke my nose when I had to stand up on my bed for something, and I was *sure* that I was well away from the ceiling fan. Which was running. Which smacked me in the face the moment I straightened up.

But perhaps the strangest part is that I *do* organize abstract information in a spatial manner. When I'm learning about a new subject, my notes look kind of like a spiderweb, with the topics arranged in different directions and distances according to how they relate to each other, with arrows going back and forth to signify different kinds of connections, and so on. But as soon as spatial relations become embodied in actual physical objects, I am lost.

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(no subject) - [info]kightp, 2007-10-11 01:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kightp, 2007-10-11 04:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-10-11 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-10-11 04:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shakatany, 2007-10-11 07:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-10-12 12:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]quantumkitty, 2007-10-12 03:30 am UTC (Expand)
West + Water - [info]sherron, 2007-10-12 05:24 am UTC (Expand)
I've got a form of dyscalculia
[info]dakiwiboid
2007-10-11 01:40 pm UTC (link)
It causes numbers to actually FLIP around on me, as happens with some kinds of dyslexia. That leads to all kinds of joy in doing data entry and accounting, believe me! I also have trouble with advanced math, and develop all sorts of anxiety about it. I was fine with geometry in high school. I told someone at the time it was because it was logical and because things STAYED STILL. It was only much later, while reading about dyslexia, which was then being written about a lot for the first time, that I realized I must have something similar with numbers. I wish I had talked to someone about it at the time.

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Re: I've got a form of dyscalculia... response to dakiwiboid... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-11 01:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Words and letters have always been easy for me - [info]dakiwiboid, 2007-10-11 01:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Words and letters have always been easy for me - [info]anderyn, 2007-10-11 02:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: I've got a form of dyscalculia... response to dakiwiboid... - [info]twistedchick, 2007-10-11 02:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: I've got a form of dyscalculia - [info]ethesis, 2007-10-13 02:40 am UTC (Expand)

[info]bluegargantua
2007-10-11 01:41 pm UTC (link)

I'm very curious.

How would you explain a subtraction problem like: 42 minus 27?

I can see where you might think "2 and 5 is 7", but how did you explain the second part?

later
Tom

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Response to bluegargantua... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-11 01:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]bluegargantua, 2007-10-11 03:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-10-11 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]kelsied, 2007-10-11 07:09 pm UTC (Expand)
memorizing vs figuring out -- Sayers' 'poll-parrot, pert, and poetic' - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-10-12 12:47 am UTC (Expand)
Re: memorizing vs figuring out -- Sayers' 'poll-parrot, pert, and poetic' - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-12 01:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]michaelsullivan, 2007-10-18 03:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2007-10-12 05:53 am UTC (Expand)

[info]mrissa
2007-10-11 01:44 pm UTC (link)
That teacher sounds like someone who was afraid of math or had problems doing it herself. She had learned one and only one way to do something, so it was a magical incantation, and anyone who did not recite the incantation was Doing It Wrong. Many grade school teachers are like this. Very few grade school teachers are comfortable with math themselves, and it perpetuates the problem on the next generation.

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(no subject) - [info]akitrom, 2007-10-11 05:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrissa, 2007-10-11 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]naamah_darling
2007-10-11 01:57 pm UTC (link)
I have long wondered what's "wrong" with me, as well.

It seems you and I work in much the same way.

Reading this, thinking about how I work, I realized that I can only add. I have to add in my head using a visual system of dots (like dominos or pips on dice) that I can combine together in patterns.

I can only subtract by adding, exactly like you did, only I do it by taking away dots.

I can only multiply by assigning each number a unit, and adding units based on one of the few multiplication tables I've memorized. For instance, I know my fives, so "8 x 7" would be five units of eight, plus two units of eight. I can count by fives eight times, using my fingers or my dots, arrive at forty. The last two units of eight add up to sixteen. I add ten to forty, then six. It sounds complicated, and it does take me longer than it takes most people, but not by much.

I can perform long division only if I'm lucky. It's just too complicated, since I can only do it by using multiplication, which I can only do by adding.

Mixing in more than one imaginary number totally fouls up my ability to add with units.

Each successive layer of math became harder and harder for me. I, with a measured IQ in the 150s, failed algebra twice and passed with a D the third time only by the good graces of my teacher. My parents tried everything -- math tutors, mail-order teaching courses, flash cards, personally helping me with my homework. No good. As soon as I was on my own, I was hopeless. Geometry was better -- I understand shapes and angles -- but not by much.

I have trouble remembering sequences of numbers, dates, and the like. I cannot remember the numbers for my own birthday much of the time. I have to turn phone numbers to letters to remember them, or set them to music.

I also sometimes have trouble remembering which is left and which is right, though I always know what direction I mean when I say it (toward or away from my writing hand).

My sense of direction is rock-solid, though, and I have never been lost in my life. Thank goodness for small blessings.

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[info]tablesaw
2007-10-11 02:02 pm UTC (link)
This post makes me wonder if we shouldn't have some sort of concept of "perceptual deficiencies" other than "learning disabilities." I've never had problems with math or language, but the experiences you're describing do apply to my ability to keep an area "clean." I'm good at organization, but not at cleaning. I'm often surprised when people describe an area as "too messy" or take umbrage when people "remind" me to clean things that I believe I already have cleaned.

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[info]eciklb
2007-10-11 02:17 pm UTC (link)
The thing is, your method of subtraction actually makes lots of mathematical sense, and it's likely the way subtraction was *done* by some cultures before us (I suspect it's how the Mycenaeans did subtraction, for instance). Carrying things works beautifully on a plug-in-the-numbers-and-follow-the-steps level but doesn't necessarily imply any actual understanding of why things work. Your method *does* imply an understanding of the relationship between the numbers.

It makes me wonder, if you had had access to a Montessori school might you have had a better time of math; the teaching method is very different, and I suspect it would have matched your learning style better.

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-10-11 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-10-12 12:53 am UTC (Expand)

[info]anderyn
2007-10-11 02:17 pm UTC (link)
This is very interesting. I have the "left-right" trouble mentioned by "loligo", and I am sure I would never be able to figure out which way is North even with a compass (even though I know I work on the "old west side" of town, it doesn't "feel" west to me!). And of course I can't tell size/spatial things at all -- my depth perception is totally wacky and I am prone to walking into walls that I've known were there for 20+ years or whacking people in the head with cans I'm trying to hand them because I don't know they're that close (okay, um, that was when I was unloading a cupboard and trying to hand a can to my then-eight-year-old daughter, who managed to stand in my *huge* blind spot).

And I am pants at any kind of math that requires actual numbers and actually doing anything beyond addition and subtraction. I was cool with geometry and algebra in high school, as long as it was playing with formulae, but I could NOT plug in numbers and work with it.

But I blame that on the New Math, and my third-grade year. See, we moved to three different school districts that year, and I went from New Math to something else to yet a third school, and I totally froze on the math. I have to draw little dots and add them up if I want to check my multiplication (or did, before calculators! God bless calculators!).

And guess where I work? Irony of ironies, I work at a mathematical journal and proofread equations all day. I don't speak equation!

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-10-11 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anderyn, 2007-10-11 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]shakatany, 2007-10-11 07:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2007-10-11 02:24 pm UTC (link)
I can navigate fine by landmarks, but deprived of them... Um, East is the sunrise position and if you face North, East is on the right hand. And that's about it for there.

I also have no sense of measurements unless I consciously mess with it. I know one of my finger-joints is about an inch. I know that our family room is 22x22 feet. I can sort of... work with that.

And the adding/subtracting thing... Isn't that just terminology? At least till you get to things like negative numbers. You're taking the difference, that's all, and if you get the right answer... Heck, I think my daughter does something similar, which confounds me slightly because the terminology when she's solving her homework isn't what I expect, and sometimes I go, "No, you have to... Oh, wait, you got it right, never-mind."

I am not terribly good at math beyond algebra (as in: I suck after algebra), and I've probably forgotten most of my algebra, but I rather liked it, in a logic puzzle sort of way. There was generally one right answer, and it was just a matter of finding it, and not having to write long stuff.

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[info]elfwreck
2007-10-11 02:29 pm UTC (link)
I adore math; I never met a math problem I didn't like (although I certainly met plenty that were tedious), and I breezed through math classes at school. I could explain my work if that's what they wanted, and although once in a while I took shortcuts they didn't approve of, by the time I was there, shortcuts-in-general were okay. (Especially since I *could* do it the long way as well.)

But I was/am very nervous about helping my kids with their math homework, because I don't want to be one of those teachers who inflicts her one method on kids who think differently. I could never figure out if I was supposed to be teaching them to "get right answers" or "use right methods." (Both can be important. For any real-world problem, "right answers" is what you need. But for schooling, you need to learn methods that can get right answers when applied to any situation, and some of the shortcuts kids invent won't do that.)

It seems like your "adding instead of subracting" is not a math problem as much as a communication one. We *do* subtract by adding, with a blank.

5+2=7, therefore 7-2=5. Young kids are taught to look at 7-2=___, and think, "2+ ___ = 7." And then they're supposed to make the linguistic shift to calling that a different kind of process.

We occasionally try to confuse the issue with apples--"if Tommy has seven apples, and he gives two to Mary, how many apples does Tommy have?" But unless they're phrased very carefully, they trip up the more practical kids. (If Tommy has seven apples, and he eats two, how many does he have? Five apples and two cores. Or seven apples, five in his hands and two in his stomach.) And the apple examples collapse when larger numbers are involved... the method of "imagine a number of real-world objects, and then imagine part of them vanishing--how many are left?" goes outside of the realm of conscious imagination for most people when you get to double digits; nobody is imagining 4,251 school buses in a fleet and then imagining 127 of them with flat tires and visualizing how many are still on the road.

Same with multiplication/division. We teach division by having kids memorize the multiplication tables, not by saying "sort 60 into 5 piles; how many are in each pile?" (There's some of that. Has the same problem... works with tiny numbers you can draw on a page, but not with larger ones.)

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(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-10-11 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nrc_eu
2007-10-11 02:34 pm UTC (link)
I'm wondering if many people have a block or inability in some area of their life. When printing, I can't differeniate between "b" and "d". Once I've actually printed the letter, I can tell if I have the right one (because it will look wrong on the page), but trying to decide in my mind before hand, I can't do it.

I'm also phobic to the point of "mind freeze" when it comes to solving word problems. I completely understand that feeling of "numbness."

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Re: Response to bluegargantua...
[info]dpolicar
2007-10-11 02:38 pm UTC (link)
[And I have no idea what that "even with a compass" bit might mean. I have no more internal sense of where north is when I'm holding a compass than when I'm not, but I certainly know how to use the compass to go in whatever direction I need to go.]

I think I can help here... I have a lousy sense of direction, even with a compass. My instinct is, roughly, "OK, great, North is THAT way, but I don't WANT to go North!" It takes a good deal of careful thinking for me to figure out that a compass also tells me which way Southeast is, and I more or less have to rederive that logic each time, and it's still quite easy for me to get confused even so.

Also, you're not alone with respect to quirky subtraction. Faced with "36-22" my warble (I love that usage!) is "6 gets to 30, 8 gets to 22, 6+8 is 14." Faced with "1231-876" my warble is "231 gets to 1000, 100 gets to 900, 24 gets to 876, 231 + 100 + 24 = 355".

I also never got around to memorizing my 8x and 7x times-tables, and solve them all in terms of factors of 3 and 4. Faced with 8x7 I still think "4x7 is 28 x2 is 56"

I was a physics major when I started college, and was generally in the habit of memorizing one canonical form for the equation of each major principle and rederiving the form I needed to solve each problem on the fly. As the math got more complicated this turned into a less and less efficient way to do it (relative to memorizing all the variant forms of the equation relevant to special circumstances) and eventually I just gave up and switched majors.

And statistics make my head hurt, but I had no choice but to get a working knowledge of them if I was going to graduate. My habit then (and now) is to jump directly to specific examples. When someone says to me "there's a 5% chance of X" I immediately try to translate that into "OK, so if I have 100 Ys, 5 of them will be X" and I essentially picture them in my head. (Often I discover that neither I, nor the speaker, can tell me what the relevant Ys are... which to my mind means neither of us knows what we're actually talking about.) (Also, "picture" isn't right, as I'm not at all visual, but the word I want is missing. It would be closer to say that I echolocate them in my head.)

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Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]naath, 2007-10-11 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-10-11 03:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]pthalogreen, 2007-10-12 01:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... - [info]pthalogreen, 2007-10-12 01:06 pm UTC (Expand)
approximating/estimating? square roots - (Anonymous), 2007-10-12 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... and to dpolicar.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-12 01:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bluegargantua... and to dpolicar.... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-10-12 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Minor correction... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-10-12 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)
freeway metaphor - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-10-12 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]naath
2007-10-11 02:51 pm UTC (link)
I have no sense of absolute direction or distance whatsoever (that is I can say X is to the left of Y and further away but not that X is to the North and 5 feet away).

On the other hand I'm very good at maths (well, fsvo very - I'm by no stretch a mathematician).

One thing that seems odd about your account to me is that I was very definitely taught that I should remember the combinations of single digit numbers by rote in order to be able to perform subtraction just by looking at the problem (I can't do that, I have to count up; so if someone says to me 'what is 7-4' I go '4...5...6...7... ah, 3' or look at my hands) before we were taught ways to deal with place notation.

Your teacher's reaction seems to me to be a deficiency in their teaching skills (or more likely their maths skills) more than a deficiency in your ability to subtract - most people have some 'trick' or other to doing arithmetic that works for them.

And maths is very cumulative - if you can't do arithmetic with ease then you'll find statistics really hard, because classes that explain statistics have lots of doing arithmetic in them (and statistics is totally on crack anyway in terms of relating to the actual world).

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[info]geojlc
2007-10-11 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I only got over my dread of math when I got past the point where they wouldn't let us use calculators. I still do addition and subtraction by counting on my fingers. I know some of my multiplication tables (and some better than others). I can if I have to do large addition or multiplication problems on paper where I can write things down and keep them pinned on paper (and, incidentally, do my other mini problems in the margins). For the most part, though, I always have a calculator on me (my phone!) and just use that. I get the answer faster and it's more likely to be right.

I always hated it when teachers would introduce short cuts and expect us to use them. They didn't make sens to me and I never got the right answers using them. My teachers used to despair when they got to my assignments because, since I showed all my work, were inevitably long.

Once I got past doing the stupid basics, I started to enjoy the more abstract stuff. I really liked geometry and some parts of algebra. I remember once spending several pages solving a 4 problem/4 variable unknown algebra problem and really enjoying the process.

When I got to calculus, I also learned that most math people are really bad at teaching the whys of the math. They could teach me how to do the calculus, but they could not make me understand what we were doing with the math. My physics class, however, really helped me learn they whys of what I was doing. But they were lousy at teaching the math... :-) One of the problems I had in my math classes was that they didn't give you all the information in the problem. They wanted you to show that you could do an integral, so they would give you a simplified equation and want you to simply solve it. But all the units were in British standard (feet, miles, whatever). My brain couldn't simply plug the numbers they gave me into the simplified equation and come up with an answer. I had to convert everything to metric, go find the real equation in my physics book, do the math, and then convert everything back to british... I would get the right answers but drive my teachers crazy!

The other thing I found really interesting was when I took a college math class for prospective elementary ed teachers (before I switched majors). I remember learning, for the first time, many of the reasons behind what I was doing. The biggest epiphany for me was how base 10 really worked. I was so taken with it, that I learned how to count in several other bases and even made myself some addition and subtraction tables in the other bases. Suddenly several things just clicked!

For what it's worth, I am terrible at feeling directions. I can know by maps, compasses, and landmarks which way is north, but it still doesn't feel that way. When I moved to Utah to go to school, the direction I knew to be west always felt north. Sometimes when I'm driving at night and can't see my major landmarks, I'll suddenly look around and wonder which direction I'm traveling...

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(no subject) - [info]geojlc, 2007-10-11 03:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-10-11 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2007-10-12 02:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]starcat_jewel
2007-10-11 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Just out of curiosity, how would you have explained 342 - 173? There's nothing you can add to 3 and get 2...

I agree, FWIW, that your second-grade math teacher was badly wrong, both for not properly explaining the jargon and for refusing to recognize a correct answer because you didn't use the jargon. Isaac Asimov used to tell a story about a teacher like that, who punished him for realizing that he could short-circuit an assignment of "add up all the numbers from 1 to 100" by multiplying 50 x 101. (1 + 100 = 101, 2 + 99 = 101, 3 + 98 = 101... and there are 50 such pairs of numbers.)

I had something similar happen to me in the 8th grade with "mixture problems" and a teacher who oh-so-gently suggested that perhaps I wasn't smart enough to be in the honors math class; the difference was that I knew I could do it, and I knew why I wasn't getting it (long story short: this teacher was trying to teach both the honors class and a regular class in the same room at the same time, and both classes were being shortchanged as a result), and I had a friend who was willing to sit down with me after school and pound it thru my head until I did understand it. But in the second grade, you hadn't had the chance to figure out that you could do it yet, and your teacher made sure you never would. That's bordering on child abuse IMO.

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(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-10-11 03:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to archangelbeth... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-25 02:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to archangelbeth... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-10-25 05:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-11 03:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]indefatigable42, 2007-10-11 04:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]ysabel, 2007-10-11 04:43 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]the_red_baron
2007-10-11 03:45 pm UTC (link)
I'm one of those who immediately thought your teacher handled things badly, and it reminded me of some recent posts that [info]yhlee has been doing, about the problems with elementary math education in the U.S. You might be interested in checking them out.

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Response to the red baron... - [info]ozarque, 2007-10-12 01:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jehannamama
2007-10-11 03:50 pm UTC (link)
There is dyscalculia... but I think that speaks for