ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-09-01 09:16:00
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Linguistics; "politeness" in language behavior; sampler...
Many of your comments have been pointing out -- accurately, and politely -- that the term "politeness" in our discussion continues to be undefined. I spent a little time putting together a sampler of definitions and related items that may -- impolitely -- tell you more about politeness than you are interested in knowing.

1. The Free Dictionary, online, provides these two definitions, the first of which strikes me as unacceptably circular and the second of which strikes me as unacceptably vague:

a. politeness - a courteous manner that respects accepted social usage

b. politeness - the act of showing regard for others

2. My print edition of Webster's defines "politeness" as the noun form of "polite," itself defined as follows:

a. having or showing culture or good taste; polished; cultured; refined

b. having or showing good manners; esp., courteous, considerate, tactful, etc.

I had no luck finding any dictionary definitions, on- or offline, that seemed to me to be anything more than variations on those above.

3. In "Politeness, Face and Facework: Current Issues" [on pp. 322-332 of A Man of Measure: Frestschrift in Honor of Fred Karlsson, online at http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1.4.7.%20VILKKI.pdf ], Liisa Vilkki tells us (page 323) that most of the linguistics studies in politeness have "conceptualized" it as "strategic conflict-avoidance" or "strategic construction of co-operative social interaction." On page 328 she tells us that according to Richard J. Watts, "some examples of lay interpretations of polite language usage are 'the language a person uses to avoid being too direct', 'language which displays respect towards or consideration for others', or 'language that displays certain "polite" formulaic utterances like please, thank you, excuse me or </i>sorry</i>'. On the other hand, some people may consider the polite use of language as, for example, 'hypocritical', 'dishonest' or 'distant'. " And on the same page: "His aim to to demonstrate that at least in English, linguistic structures do not in themselves denote politeness. Rather, they lend themselves to individual interpretation as polite in instances of ongoing verbal interaction."

[I recommend this article if you're looking for a basic overview of work on politeness theory in linguistics that's reasonably brief, reasonably thorough, and reasonably easy to understand. Vilkki is careful to explain basic concepts and terms, and to provide references.]

4. In "Logic and conversation," pp. 41-58 of Peter Cole and J. L. Morgan (editors), Syntax and Semantics: Volume 3, Paul Grice writes:

"Politeness results from the requirement to create an undisturbed interaction with the members of one's own group. The function of politeness is among other things to create a framework to open conversations (i.e.: greeting, greeting back, introducing oneself etc.), to have a conversation (i.e.: interruption, change topic, questions of understanding, etc.) and to finish discussions (i.e.: conclusion of a topic, saying goodbye etc.), as well as to maintain conversations."

[This is quoted in a paper by Antje Brinckmann titled "Politeness in English and Japanese" -- only the first page or two of which is available online -- at http://www.grin.com/en/preview/65840.html . Notice the loophole in the quote: "The function of politeness is among other things...." However, ""Politeness results from the requirement to create an undisturbed interaction with the members of one's own group" is, in my opinion, progress toward an actual definition.]

5. Then there's Geoffrey Leech's "Principle of Politeness," in a 30-page PDF titled "Politeness: Is there an East-West Divide?", online at http://ling.lancs.ac.uk/staff/geoff/leech2006politeness.pdf :

"The Principle of Politeness... is a constraint observed in human communicative behavior, influencing us to avoid communicative discord or offence, and maintain communicative concord."

And Leech goes on, usefully, to discuss two ways to evaluate politeness:

"(i) Absolute politeness scale: We can order utterances on a scale of politeness out of context. For example... we can judge that Can you help me? is more polite, as a request, than Help me, and is less polite than Could you possibly help me?."

"(ii) Relative politeness scale: This is politeness relative to norms in a given society, for a given group, or for a given situation. Unlike the absolute scale, it is sensitive to context, and is a bi-directional scale. Hence it is possible that the form considered more polite on the absolute politeness scale is judged less polite relative to the norms for the situation. E.g. Could I possibly interrupt? could be understood as 'too polite', say, if spoken to family members monopolising the conversation: it could be interpreted as coldly sarcastic."

6. And here's Sara Mills, in "Rethinking Politeness, Impoliteness and Gender Identity," online at http://tinyurl.com/24j3xz :

"In terms of the analysis of politeness, I would argue that we need several analytical changes: firstly, we need to see politeness as occurring over longer stretches of talk; secondly, it should be seen within the context of a community of practice, rather than simply as the product of individual speakers, and finally, we need to be aware that there may be conflicts over the meanings of politeness."

And she reminds us of Brown and Levinson's 1978 model of politeness, saying that "They argue for a pragmatic analysis of politeness which involves a concentration on the amount of verbal 'work' which individual speakers have to perform in their utterances to counteract the force of potential threats to the 'face' of the hearer."


End of sampler. Finally.


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[info]ironphoenix
2007-09-01 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Fantastic research! Thanks!

The distinction between "(im)polite(ness)1" and "(im)polite(ness)2" in Vilkki's paper is very good, and useful for the original discussion of how to engage in political discourse. I believe that effective political speech/writing/signing may very well be impolite1, and that an effective strategy for doing this can be determined through an understanding of politeness2. Watts is read as arguing "that (im)politeness1 is a locus of social struggle over discursive practices," and that "this very fact should be the central focus of a theory of politeness ... the ways in which (im)polite behavior is evaluated and commented on by lay people." That is exactly the issue we want to hit: how to configure a dialogue in which we can speak/write/sign so that we will be heard as we want to be heard.

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Response to ironphoenix...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-01 03:42 pm UTC (link)
You're very welcome; thank you for your comment, and for the encouraging words. I want to make certain that I understand what you're saying....

The distinction Vilkki mentions has "(im)polite(ness) 1" as the "commonsense or lay notion of (im)politeness" and "(im)polite(ness) 2" as "the theoretical notion" of the term. And she goes on to say (referring to Watts) that "a theory of politeness2 should concern itself with the discursive struggle over politeness1, or in other words, over the ways in which (im)polite behavior is evaluated and commented on by lay people."

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that "effective political speech/writing/signing may well be" impoliteness in the lay sense of the word, and that understanding politeness in the theoretical sense may be the way to find an effective strategy for such speech/writing/signing. Do I have that right? Am I misunderstanding?

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Re: Response to ironphoenix...
[info]ironphoenix
2007-09-02 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I think you have me right; it's a strange enough idea that I had to reread your restatement a couple of times (and my own original comment) to be sure.

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[info]wolfangel78
2007-09-01 03:48 pm UTC (link)
What an odd idea, that there can be a scale of absolute politeness. What makes "Could I possibly interrupt?" inherently politer? I think this continues to be a problem with the undefined notion of politeness, because I think that there is no point in examining utterances in a vacuum for politeness; it's meaningful only in the context of some particular conversation. He seems to say that things are more polite if they are either more indirect ("Could you X" vs "Could you possibly X") or wordier ("Thanks" vs "Thank you very much"). This is fine, I suppose, as a general rule for people who are learning English (children, immigrants, second language learners, etc), but I don't imagine it's very useful in practice -- as he points out, in any given situation, politeness is actually determined in a less scalar way.

He doesn't really go into this in any major way further, based on my scan, so I'm not clear if he later says that the former scale is less useful in a real world context.

On a different note, I think that the lack of definition of politeness (sometimes in political debate called niceness) is part of why it's so effectively used to shut people up.

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[info]takumashii
2007-09-01 04:28 pm UTC (link)
I think a lot of these definitions don't capture very well the distinction between formality and politeness. I like Miss Manners' definition of politeness as customs for kindness and setting people at ease (as well as showing regard/respect), and that's not something you can do simply by ratcheting the formality level way up.

Because it's possible to be very formal and very rude at the same time, just as it's possible to be informal and very polite.

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Yes!
[info]maggieno
2007-09-01 07:25 pm UTC (link)
I have long found Miss Manners to have one of the most sensible grips on social interactions. The point that it is possible to be formal and rude at the same time is often lost in a frustrated reaction to rudeness that seems to be unassailable because of the formal language used.

The problem with all definitions of politeness is the eternal conflict of perceived custom.

My level of polite language is far afield from my partner's and I doubt that we will ever solve that problem in our communications. I constantly misread how to match her idea of a polite request ("I would like, if you don't mind, to do X; is that all right with you?" and end up sounding condescending to her (too many qualifiers), while her efforts to match me end up sounding bossy (too abrupt and imperative) to me.

We've learned to "forgive" each other's speech patterns, but it still sometimes causes eruptions of angry miscommunication. And if that can happen between two people coupled for nearly 30 years (and still hoping for another 30), I have little faith that such chasms of different customs will ever be easy to bridge in open society. Perhaps one solution is to put the language in use on a secondary level and to encourage people to accept the assumption that most people do not mean to insult/hurt/abuse you as a primary basis for communication.

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[info]wolfangel78
2007-09-01 07:40 pm UTC (link)
That is a good point as well, and I think when people are confused, they substitute formality for politeness. (Also when they want to be aggressive.)

But of course, this is compared to whatever their typical formality level is; my more aggressive formal might be less formal than your entirely natural formal. (And of course I can be more formal for other reasons as well, not just because I am trying to attack.)

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Response to wolfangel78...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-01 05:00 pm UTC (link)
I think that what makes the idea of a scale of absolute politeness seem odd is that I quoted Leech -- unfairly -- out of context. The distinction between ranking utterances of English as more or less polite on an absolute basis -- which is a common practice in etiquette-and-usage books -- and ranking them as more or less polite in context is one that needs to be made and is useful. Any linguist could propose as a hypothesis that utterances of English meeting some particular set of specifications are inherently more polite than other utterances of English, and other linguists could then examine that hypothesis to determine whether it appears to be valid, whether it's useful in doing linguistics, and so on. That would be a non-odd hypothesis within the theory of politeness, subject to investigation and either proof or disproof, and Leech would be the first to point that out.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-09-01 07:18 pm UTC (link)
It sounds as if wordiness and indirectness are the key in making requests, because of the distance they provide from sounding as if you are giving the other person an order. That is -

"Open the window!" is extremely rude unless you're talking to someone who either promised to do it and didn't, or someone whose job it is, or both. That's because it's a direct order.

"Please open the window" sounds like a request, an acknowledgment that the other person doesn't have to but is doing you a favor. Unfortunately, since the boss uses that form all the time and is really sugar-coating a direct order, someone used to that form will mentally 'hear' it as the form above.

To make it clear this really is a request and not a disguised order, you then have to go to "Please, if you don't mind...." which as noted above, often is seen as sarcasm because it often is.

You can't win. Not unless you are very skilled in gearing your requests to the person involved or unless the person and the cultural milieu are so familiar to you it's like speaking your native tongue.

Just my $0.02,

Pat

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[info]wolfangel78
2007-09-01 07:34 pm UTC (link)
I think you cannot win -- when it's made into a contest. If you are in a conversation that is generally friendly, where people are trying to assume, if not the best, not the worst, either, then you don't have to win or lose. When someone wants to make an issue of it, it is impossible to win, because of the lack of clarity about what politeness even means. (Does it really mean being wordier? I mean, "Please hold this for me" is not impolite, even compared to "if you do not mind, would you please do me the favour of holding this". And of course in an emergency situation, adding the extra words here and there could be argued as being rude.)

And this entirely leaves out intonation, which can make "Open the window" sound polite or "Do you mind opening the window" sound rude.

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Politeness = Lying
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-01 04:19 pm UTC (link)
When I was little, I thought "politeness" mean "lying." Specifically, it meant "the lying demanded by others, who may issue punishment if the desired lie is not said." Every time someone said "Be polite," it was in a situation where they meant I was not to reveal what I actually thought or felt, but was to utter some predetermined phrase whether it was true or not (and it was never true). I resented the hypocrisy of being told that honesty was a virtue -- but people HATE it, and harass you for speaking truths they don't want to hear, no matter how carefully phrased -- while also being told to say false things under certain circumstances.

However, I've gotten some useful things out of that conflict.

1) My definition of what "politeness" *should* be is "gently if possible, firmly if necessary." Speak the truth in a way that does not cause unnecessary discomfort and respects people's feelings.

2) I found that my ideas of decent behavior were sufficiently different from other people's that I stopped trying to make sense of them, and simply *memorized* expected phrases and behaviors. The result is an elaborate construct of civility that takes a lot of energy to run, but is pretty good at faking a natural sense of politeness. I am bemused that my friends tell me it has gotten *better* than what a natural sense typically delivers, because I'm more methodical about some things. It doesn't feel that way to me, but the last person who said that had professional credentials to back it up, so it's kind of past the point where I can fairly argue.

What interests me most about politeness are the damage-control routines. There are things that can be said without either lying or being unnecessarily mean. Frex, if somebody gives you shocking news, you can say "Thank you for telling me" instead of "I'm glad you told me" or "HOW could you BE so STUPID?" I collect those useful phrases. I've also gotten intrigued by cross-cultural comparisons. It's a lot easier to examine customs through anthropology than through social awareness. Stacking up different people's ways of doing things can make the patterns pop out. I eventually got into reading etiquette books to see how people tried to explain things.

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[info]dpolicar
2007-09-01 05:47 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for putting this together!

I haven't come close to digging through all these links, but at the moment my sympathies lie with "strategic construction of co-operative social interaction."

Or, perhaps more honestly: if that isn't what "politeness" is, then my inclination is to pay more attention to that and less attention to politeness. If it turns out that we can all go around being impolite to each other in ways that optimize our willingness and ability to work together to get things done, I'd be pretty much on board with that. (I don't actually think it's possible, though.)

Anyway... we got on this road in the first place by talking about how various social and political groups communicate effectively. Perhaps the conclusion here is that we can drop talk of politeness altogether in that context, and concentrate on communications strategies that result in groups working effectively together?

Of course, that doesn't preclude also talking about politeness, for it's own sake, as in this thread.

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Response to dpolicar...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-02 12:44 pm UTC (link)
"Anyway... we got on this road in the first place by talking about how various social and political groups communicate effectively. Perhaps the conclusion here is that we can drop talk of politeness altogether in that context, and concentrate on communications strategies that result in groups working effectively together?"

I understand why you'd want to move on, or move back. But do you think it's possible? That is, do you think we can skip the step of working out a way to approach the people whose attitudes we'd like to change without figuring out how we can avoid being perceived as impolite? It seems to me that that was the major communication flaw plaguing Al Gore and John Kerry, for example; it's certainly the major communication flaw plaguing George Lakoff.

If we go all fake-folksy, we'll be perceived as rude; if we talk "naturally," which means we'll have to be constantly explaining the meanings of the words we're using, we'll be perceived as rude; if we refuse to explain the words we're using and just insist on using the register we'd use with other members of the intellectual elite, we'll be perceived as rude.

My guess is that the solution to being perceived as polite rather than rude -- in English -- is in the nonverbal communication we use. But discussing that option wouldn't get us back to your "concentrating on communications strategies."

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Re: Response to dpolicar...
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-02 02:23 pm UTC (link)
There is at least one more factor to be considered: When you tell people something that they do not want to hear, they are likely to perceive you as being rude, regardless of the manner in which you phrase and bodyparl the message. When you tell people something that they want to hear, they are likely to perceive you as being polite -- even if you are *lying* to them. It's not hard to fool people into believing something they want to hear.

How can you compete -- if your message contains unpleasant truths -- with someone who tells delicious lies?

I think that's a big problem in politics. I have now heard at least two presidential candidates speaking bitter truths such as "global warming is an emergency that threatens human survival, so we MUST promptly stop using fossil fuels," and both of them were fringe runners with nary a chance of election. Now I'm sure part of that is because they don't get the kind of publicity that the money-hogs do, but I believe that the main reason is because there are other candidates telling pretty lies like "global warming isn't a real threat, so nothing needs to be done about it." That's just frustrating to watch.

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Re: Response to dpolicar...
[info]dpolicar
2007-09-02 03:47 pm UTC (link)
> But do you think it's possible?

Beats me! Perhaps not.

But I do want to clarify something: what I'm suggesting is not that we try to continue that discussion while pretending that being rude, or perceived as rude, is not an issue.

Rather, I'm suggesting that we stop trying to talk about "politeness" as a single reified entity in that context (while remaining free to continue doing so in other contexts), and concentrate on the various relevant pieces of it instead, without worrying about how those pieces interact to form "politeness". Maybe this idea that there's a single thing to be discussed is just a distracting artifact of language.

We've already talked about the use of words that aren't in the working vocabulary of 90%+ of the population; I think even those of us who are in the habit of doing it regularly agree that there's audience it loses, even if we aren't willing to agree that it's impolite.

We haven't really talked about the use of "academic" sentence structure, even with common words, but I expect there's a similar effect there as well.

I agree with you completely about nonverbal communication being key (though I don't understand why you don't think that's part of a communications strategy)... we've talked about that in general a fair amount on this journal, though there may well be new things to be said about it in the specific context of Right/Left politics.

You've made passing references to framing mechanisms in the context of Good Story-telling... the "you know what really gets to me?" and similar leadins.

Perhaps there's something relevant to be said about how to engage with these kinds of stories in asynchronous forums, like LJ and letters to the editor, where there's the added dynamic of how you cite the stuff you want to respond to... how directly can you respond to what you disagree with without short-circuiting your strategy (that is, without being perceived as rude)? This strikes me as sharing aspects with the problem of indirection in speech... e.g., the differences between "What time is it?", "Do you have the time?", "If it's not too much trouble, I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me what time it was.", and "Boy, you'd think they'd have more clocks here, wouldn't you?"

Etc. etc. etc.

Certainly, all these things are related to politeness, and are important aspects of a communications strategy. I wasn't suggesting we not talk about them, rather that perhaps we could make more progress tackling them independently.

Just a thought, though.

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Re: Response to dpolicar... cpmtomied///
[info]ozarque
2007-09-02 06:16 pm UTC (link)
You're making good and interesting points; thank you for posting them. You may well be right to suggest that we take "politeness" apart and look at its subparts.

One note... I do think that nonverbal communication is part of communication strategy. I have consistently said that for English I think it's the most important part. I just have no idea how to discuss that effectively with only written language at my disposal, especially given the strength of the resistance.

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Re: Response to dpolicar... cpmtomied/// ... postscript...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-02 06:28 pm UTC (link)
Having your fingers on the wrong keys when you type is counterproductive; I'm sorry. That non-word was supposed to be "continued..."

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Re: Response to dpolicar... cpmtomied/// ... postscript...
[info]dpolicar
2007-09-02 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Hee! And I didn't even stop to look it up.

(Actually, I assumed it was someone's LJ handle and you were responding to both of us and didn't give it a second thought.)

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Re: Response to dpolicar... cpmtomied///
[info]dpolicar
2007-09-02 06:46 pm UTC (link)
I do think that nonverbal communication is part of communication strategy. I have consistently said that for English I think it's the most important part. I just have no idea how to discuss that effectively with only written language at my disposal, especially given the strength of the resistance.

Ah! That makes much more sense than what I'd thought you said. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Re: Response to dpolicar... cpmtomied///
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-03 04:40 pm UTC (link)
For discussing nonverbal language, I'd haul out my sign language dictionaries and look at how *they* describe poses, motions, facial expressions, and the communicative uses of same. I've heard that someone has devised a set of symbols representing various hand shapes and motions, which is the visual equivalent of a phoneme set that can be used to represent any signed language; but I haven't been able to find a copy of it yet. Something like that for bodyparl ought to be possible to create. Certainly there are people who know how to teach at least some types of bodyparl, such as those who teach male-to-female transsexuals how to move like women.

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Re: Response to dpolicar...
[info]dteleki
2007-09-04 06:51 am UTC (link)
We've already talked about the use of words that aren't in the working vocabulary of 90%+ of the population; I think even those of us who are in the habit of doing it regularly agree that there's audience it loses, even if we aren't willing to agree that it's impolite.

... and indeed we did not intend it to be impolite, but in our audience's perceptions it was impolite, and usually was perceived as not just accidentally impolite but deliberately impolite. At the same time that we never imagined that we were doing anything noteworthy at all, and certainly not anything impolite.

The best word I know for a complaint about this specific variety of "impolite" is: "hoity-toity".

I think it would help to make a distinction, and to describe strategies like "reduce your vocabulary to match your audience's vocabulary" and "simplify your sentence structures to match those of your audience" as strategies for being "sociable", instead of being "polite".

And that leads to an idea about how to unpack the concept of "impolite", in order to deal with its separate and logically distinct components individually:
. You're "impolite" if you insist on telling your audience something it doesn't believe or doesn't want to hear or doesn't want to discuss -- to a noteworthy degree. Call this one "impolitic".
. You're "impolite" if you use language (e.g. vocabulary or sentence structure) that is of higher or lower status than your audience uses and is accustomed to -- to a noteworthy degree. Call this one "hoity-toity" (higher-status language than the audience's) or "talking down" (lower-status language than the audience's). In our culture, more education and more adult-like language are higher-status than less education and less adult-like language.
. You're "impolite" if you fail to try to protect the ego and feelings and "face" of your audience -- to a noteworthy degree. Call this one "rude".
. You're "impolite", if your intonation or your bodyparl or both, imply that you have a superior or contemptuous attitude towards your audience -- to a noteworthy degree. Call this one "condescending". It is possible to be perceived as "condescending" even though your actual words contain no such implication. If your words are written words, it is possible to be perceived as "condescending" even though your written words contain no such implication and no such attitude or emotion was in your head when you wrote those words.
. About "to a noteworthy degree"... different people have different ideas about how much of the various varieties of "impolite" is impolite enough to matter. Also, different people will grant leeway for "impoliteness", to various persons to various degrees for various reasons. Some of the typical reasons for granting leeway include:
. . the speaker is young,
. . the speaker is inexperienced,
. . the speaker is not a native speaker of the language,
. . the speaker was raised wrong (in any number of perceived varieties of "raised wrong"),
. . the speaker is a member of a culture or a subculture where the politeness rules are different*,
. . the speaker is under emotional stress,
. . the speaker's social role or job role requires him/her to ignore the usual rules of politeness with respect to certain subjects (e.g. your physician demanding to know intimate details of how you conduct your sex life, because that normally-taboo topic has an obvious relevance to the topic of risks to your physical health),
. . the speaker is trying to warn you about a danger or an emergency,
. . the speaker's usual social role or job role habitually requires him/her to be "impolite" in some way, and that habit partially carries over into other areas of that speaker's life.

* See comment to comment.

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Re: Response to dpolicar...
[info]dteleki
2007-09-04 06:52 am UTC (link)
Comment to comment...

* My grandmother would sometimes say things that seemed incredibly impolite, and then when complained to about it, would insist that "you can say that in Hungarian". (She was born in Hungary, was a native speaker of Hungarian, and was about 40 years old when she emigrated.) When I asked my father about it, he would explain that in Hungary when he was growing up, considerable leeway was granted to women of my grandmother's social class and of the same age as my grandmother today -- leeway that would not have been granted to him either then or now.

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Re: Response to dpolicar...
(Anonymous)
2007-09-02 05:04 pm UTC (link)
Might you be barking up a tree where there's nothing treed up it?

Not everyone in the US speaks Broadcaster English, and not everyone likes it, but most everyone understands it. They listen to despicable content, as well as neutral and heartwarming, and they never, or vanishingly rarely, hold the messenger responsible for the message.

How about if the messengers tried for transparent, rather than polite, or not-rude? Not the candidates, they have to be noticeable, but when we try that, it gets in our way.

Basic, correct grammar, and basic correct vocabulary. Neutral language. Neutral tone. I don't think this is the place for the medium to be perceived as inherent in the message.

Meg Umans

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Re: Response to dpolicar... and to Meg Umans...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-02 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Meg, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here -- and I'm not certain whether your comment was addressed to me or to [info]dpolicar. I think it was intended for me; if that's wrong, I apologize.

If I'm not misunderstanding you, what you're suggesting is that the "messengers" just state the simple truth in a neutral manner, using "correct" vocabulary and grammar. Is that an accurate interpretation?

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[info]margvamp
2007-09-02 12:25 am UTC (link)
RE formality and rudeness: In the section on "Affection" in his THE FOUR LOVES, C. S. Lewis points out that in a domestic context, over-formality can be extremely rude, because the standard of politeness in a close, affectionate relationship entails a relaxed style of conversation. People in conversation with family members often show they feel offended by switching to an artificially formal register of discourse. RE "Could you possibly" as being "politer" than simply "Please," the former, more wordy style can be perceived as weak rather than courteous, especially if spoken by a woman. I know that my husband has often responded with irritation, sometimes outright anger, at what I intended as a polite request, e.g., "Do you think we should --?" rather than saying what (as he'd put it) I really mean, "I want to --." The latter, for me, feels discourteously demanding. On the other hand, from what little I know of it, I gather my style would fit in nicely in Japan. :)

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-03 04:47 pm UTC (link)
>> Do you think we should --?" rather than saying what (as he'd put it) I really mean, "I want to --." <<

My partner and I run into that problem all the time. I'm sufficiently self-centered that if you ask me what I want or think, that is exactly the answer you'll get, my personal opinion -- especially if I'm distracted at the time. But what he usually means is "I want...and it's very important to me." After we figured out that we had different ways of expressing desires, we were able to construct some other stuff that would usually let us catch things before they got too far down the wrong track. We've found that repetitive misunderstandings usually have a single root cause, and digging down to the root sometimes leads to a solution that will reduce the future frequency.

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[info]ethesis
2007-09-02 01:48 am UTC (link)
Forgive me, but Americans who oppose the war do not here understand the president to be saying: Precipitous withdrawal will create a vacuum that will be filled by killing that will tip the world to darkness. That's not what they hear. I think they understand him to be saying, I got you into this, I reaped the early rewards, I rubbed your noses in it, and now you have to save the situation.

His foes feel a tight-jawed bitterness. They believe it was his job not to put America in a position in which its security is imperiled; they resent his invitation to share responsibility for outcomes of decisions they opposed. And they resent it especially because he grants them nothing -- no previous wisdom, no good intent -- beyond a few stray words here and there.

And here's the problem. The president's warnings are realistic. He's right. At the end of the day we can't just up and leave Iraq. That would only make it worse. And it is not in the interests of America or the world that it be allowed to get worse.

Would it help if the president were graceful, humble, and asked for help? Why, yes. Would it help if he credited those who opposed him with not only good motives but actual wisdom? Yes. And if he tried it, it would make news. It would really, as his press aides say, break through the clutter.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118859337442814952.html

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-02 02:39 pm UTC (link)
I do hear the president saying that leaving Iraq will create a vacuum leading to much death. I simply don't *believe* him that it will cause the world to spiral into darkness, because HE HAS BEEN WRONG ABOUT SO MUCH ELSE. It's an exaggeration of the most likely result of departure.

I'm sure leaving will allow the mess to get worse in some ways. However, it is not our country and we should not be there, and staying makes it worse in a whole lot of other ways. The goals are vague and unrealistic. We cannot stay there forever; at some point we have to leave. If other people then choose to behave like hooligans, that's up to them. They've said they don't want us there, fine, let them solve their own problems. The one that's going to flare up (religious/tribal conflict) is not something we created and not something we could possibly solve anyhow. It requires a type of personal growth that can only be accomplished by the people in whose spirits that problem resides. This does not constitute a reason to stay in Iraq indefinitely.

I hear what the president says. I simply don't find it convincing. I have been observing his actions and words for years, and I am appalled by his ignorance and incompetence.

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[info]ethesis
2007-09-02 08:49 pm UTC (link)
I have to say that;

(a) for religious grounds I oppose any pre-emptive strike.

(b) I don't believe that the "spiral into darkness" would necessarily harm American interests, though I do wonder about our moral obligations once we have created a mess.

But I was struck by the discussion of the manners of discussion and the metamessage discussion in that essay.

There are mannerly ways to ask for help or unity and there are ways that are not mannerly.

(I confess to being a big Ms. Manners fan, btw, which may not have much relevance to this particular thread).

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-02 10:19 pm UTC (link)
For many reasons, I too oppose pre-emptive strikes.

A "spiral into darkness" might or might not harm America and American interests (not necessarily the same).

With regards to the morality of damage control of mistakes ... I believe that the war in Iraq was a mistake, and I never believed it was anything else. I do not believe there is a safe, clean way to resolve that situation; all the choices at this point have some unavoidable mess. Once you're in a tarpit, there's no clean path out. We are unwelcome there, we are not helping, and we are actively making things worse. To stop making things worse and just leave would be a moral decision. If the locals then proceed to stir up trouble of their own, that is their responsibility, not ours. They're grownups; they should know better than to hit each other with trucks. If they don't -- shame on their parents, not shame on us.

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[info]spaglet
2007-09-03 09:50 am UTC (link)
The Global Guerrillas weblog suggests that it's not going to be pretty finding out, however.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-03 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I don't expect anything pretty out of Iraq in the foreseeable future ... any of the foreseeable futures, actually. It's a mess; it's only going to get messier; and the farther America is from that mess, the better. At least it will minimize the damage to our people, and it will mean we are no longer *actively contributing* damage to Iraq and its people. Damage control isn't about making things pretty. It's about cutting losses.

I'm not opposed to providing humanitarian aid, if and only if it is requested. However, I'd probably prefer to route funds and goods through some other country or organization that hasn't mightily offended most of the Middle East, than send American anything or anyone there directly.

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[info]badgermirlacca
2007-09-02 05:45 am UTC (link)
It seems to me that politeness (at least in American culture) stems from certain assumptions relative to status, rights, and obligations. One is polite when one's choice of terminology assumes that the person addressed is of equal or greater status than oneself, and therefore that person's time or actions may not be presumed upon or taken for granted.

Anyway, that's my theory.

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[info]partly
2007-09-02 09:49 pm UTC (link)
(I'm new to this conversation, so please accept my apologies if this ground was already covered)

I think the problems you are having (well, that everyone has) with defining politeness in language is that politeness isn't in the words you use, it's in how you use the words.

You can use the politest words possible, but if the underlying attitude of the speaker/writer/signer is one of contempt and disdain, only the disrespectful attitude will be seen. In fact, it's that underlying attitude of disrespect that makes the most polite of language into the most impolite.

I feel the key to being "polite" in any exchange (but especially in political, religious or other personally felt issues) is to respect the people I am addressing. That means using language they understand, not necessarily the language I am most comfortable using. That means addressing their emotional and psychological state rather than focusing on my feelings. That means acknowledging that they may have valid and legitimate reasons for believing what they do and that I can't dismiss those reasonings out of hand and expect them to accept what I say just because I say so.

The biggest problem is, of course, that far too many people use "polite words" to convey "impolite" messages or to reinforce negative viewpoints about others.

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Response to partly...
[info]ozarque
2007-09-03 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Welcome to the conversation; we're pleased to have you here.

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[info]margvamp
2007-09-03 12:15 am UTC (link)
Another aspect of politeness in everyday speech is the convention, among some subcultures, that when there's a limited supply of anything (the last piece of candy, the single ticket to a concert, etc.), the "polite" reaction is to say, "Oh, no, I don't want it, you take it." Then the other person should respond more or less identically. (Is this more likely to be a feminine behavior pattern than a masculine one, at least in our society?) This exchange continues until one person perceives that the other party has the more intense desire or need for the scarce object; then the courteous thing to do is somehow convey that this time you really DO mean for him or her to take the thing. An episode of THE COSBY SHOW illustrates this convention humorously with the teenage son and his best friend having only one ticket to an important concert between them. The boy offered the ticket to his friend who, instead of continuing the exchange of polite demurrals, took it and went into the theater. The boy was shocked and somewhat hurt by this betrayal of courteous behavior. Of course, one problem with this sort of thing is that the exchanges of "after you, Gaston" could theoretically go on forever. The other problem arises if one party makes the opening gambit of renunciation and the other, taking her at her word, simply accepts the coveted object without a second thought.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-09-03 05:21 pm UTC (link)
This is one type of exchange that I have actually parsed out how it works and why. Where I live, if you're driving by a farm and you see something you want, like pears hanging on a tree, you can go bang on the door and ask for some. The owner will tell you whether or not they're available. Then you're supposed to offer a few dollars in payment. Here's where the fun starts:

If the owner doesn't really need the money, s/he will say something like, "Gosh, no, you don't owe me anything. I've got more pears than I can use; no sense in them going to waste. Just take what you need."

The two of you make 2-3 exchanges like that ... and then you let the owner win, you go pick up some pears and say thanks and go home. It is common, but not absolutely required, for you to hand back something made from the pears later -- about 2 out of 3 times I give away pears, I'll get a can back.

If the owner *does* need the money, however, s/he may accept it on the first or second offer, depending on severity of need. It will go something like this: "Oh God, yes, every little bit helps," or sometimes with an explanation, "Well, ordinarily I'd say no, but the engine fell out of my tractor yesterday..."

So in this case, you win, and you get to pay for the pears.

It's the phrasing and the voice tone of the exchange that tell the two people how to end it and who is "supposed" to win. If the owner gives you a chipper and emphatic refusal, you know nothing's wrong; if the refusal is hedged and slow, you know there's need. (Conversely, you can signal that you're nearly broke: "I've got a dollar..." and the owner will balance that against his or her possible need.) But you have to know the local culture in order to know the little "script." It's not actually hiding anything, the way some polite exchanges are meant to keep certain things from getting out; the information is just encoded subtly. Some of the underlying premises are:

1) You don't take someone else's stuff without asking, or without offering something in return.

2) Wasting things is bad. So if you see something you can use and it looks like the owner might not need or want it (or all of it) then you can ask for it. If you have something you don't need, you should be generous and not hoard it.

3) Good relations with neighbors are important; they're supposed to help take care of each other.

4) Taking something you don't need is bad, but taking something you do need may be okay. (This is a variable; some people will accept payment when they need it, but others just won't no matter how much they need it.)

This is a type of exchange that has grown out of a specific context, and it has practical applications. The purpose of the subtle phrasing and politeness is to allow a necessary exchange of information and perhaps goods without hurting anyone's feelings.

Some misunderstandings of politeness grow out of people using different scripts, or one person using a script and the other not realizing it's a script and answering spontaneously. But not all scripts have that practical underpinning -- some of them don't actually encode when to stop, or how to handle different scenarios, so that they devolve into endless loops or irritating lies. I suddenly wonder if that means they're broken, and could possibly be fixed; or whether they were always like that. I have nothing against politeness per se, and prefer pleasant conversation to nasty conversation; I just get frustrated with politeness when it impedes clarity and honesty.

It startles people if you catch them in a script and ask for the lines. Not everyone can cue you. But some people can, so sometimes it's worth asking, if you realize you're in the middle of some script that you don't know your lines of. In any close relationship it's worth putting in the work to learn each other's scripts.

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BTW, do you still have time to read books if they are sent you?
[info]ethesis
2007-09-03 01:00 am UTC (link)
"In every interaction, every conversation and in every thought, you have a choice – to promote peace or perpetuate violence. International peacemaker, mediator and healer, Dr. Marshall B. Rosenberg shows you how the language you use is the key to enriching life. Take the first step to reduce violence, heal pain, resolve conflicts and spread peace on our planet – by developing an internal consciousness of peace rooted in the language you use each day."

I'll probably pick up a book or two by Rosenberg and if they are good, was thinking of sending one to you (or some of some others I've just ordered).

Anyway, you've been so busy, I hesitate to weigh you down with excess books.

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Re: BTW, do you still have time to read books if they are sent you?
[info]ozarque
2007-09-03 02:04 pm UTC (link)
Response to [info]ethesis...

I do have time to read books that are sent to me, although it sometimes takes me a while to get to them. And I'm always grateful for them.

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