ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-08-28 07:29:00
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Linguistics; political language; relevant quote....
The August 27, 2007 New Yorker has an article by Nicholas Lemann titled "Rovian Ways" -- about Karl Rove, obviously -- on pp. 29-30. And this chunk on page 30 caught my eye, in the context of our current discussion, saying of Rove that...


"He was consistently better than the other side at reaching the groups that felt shut out of politics, usually through local organizing. There are plenty of these groups on the left as well as on the right, but Democrats have let the muscles needed to reach them grow slack. Organizing is hard, unglamorous work; the language it requires is combative, self-interested, and non-seigneurial."


What about those three words to describe the language required for organizing? "Non-seigneurial" is a new -- and clever, and non-ordinary -- label for what I've been calling "ordinary" language, and I agree with Lemann that that's required. I think that what he means by "self-interested" is language that attempts to persuade others to adopt attitudes and beliefs and policies that are important to the speaker personally, and I can see why that's needed. But I was surprised to see the word "combative" in that sentence. Maybe what Lemann means by it is something like "persistent," "unwilling to back down when resisted," "willing to keep trying one approach after another," or something of that kind...


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[info]pgdudda
2007-08-28 12:41 pm UTC (link)
Yaknow, I think he really does mean "combative" -- in the sense that the language is intended to rile up the listener and create an "us vs. them" mentality.

Then again, not having read the entire article, I could be missing a contextual cue...

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[info]voxwoman
2007-08-28 12:51 pm UTC (link)
It's either that, or "combative" as in a general "rousing his troops" for battle (which also has that "us vs. them" mentality in it)

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Response to pqdudda...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-28 01:39 pm UTC (link)
I was surprised by "combative" -- because I've read the handbook Karl Rove wrote on the subject of (roughly) "how to talk effectively to groups that aren't politically in agreement with you," and it seemed to me to be an extensive collection of strategies and tactics for bringing about attitude change without ever openly getting into arguments. My guess is that it's not that you've missed a cue by not reading the entire article, it's that Nicholas Lemann hasn't read Rove's handbook.

I apologize for not posting the URL for the article, but typing in the title and author at Google will bring up the link immediately, unless the issue is so new that it isn't online yet. I'll go check.

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Response to pqdudda, continued...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-28 01:41 pm UTC (link)
The article's there, at http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/ 2007/08/27/070827taco_talk_lemann .

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Re: Response to pqdudda, continued...
[info]dteleki
2007-08-28 04:52 pm UTC (link)
A space sneaked into your hyperlink. The whole thing should be:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2007/08/27/070827taco_talk_lemann

Tip: if you're using the web interface to LiveJournal, it's a good idea to preview any post that contains hyperlinks, and then test each hyperlink to make sure they all work the way you intended. This is easier to do with a tabbed browser, like the latest version of MS Internet Explorer. This tip works with all blogging systems that allow hyperlinks, not just LiveJournal. But if you're using the email interface, this tip doesn't work unless your email system offers a preview mode with working hyperlinks.

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Re: Response to pqdudda, continued... response to dteleki...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-28 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the help and the information; it's much appreciated. My e-mail isn't fancy enough to let me follow your good advice, but I'll try to be more careful.

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[info]hilleviw
2007-08-28 01:40 pm UTC (link)
Interesting - that's not how I read "non-seigneurial." For me it suggested the opposite of droit-du-seigneur, which embodies entitlement; ergo non-seigneurial would be language based in the understanding that whatever is desired must be earned.

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[info]writerwench
2007-08-28 02:16 pm UTC (link)
Having read the article, it makes far more sense if the word 'language' is replaced by 'attitude' - using 'language' in the sense of 'body-language', way of interacting with the world, a wider sense than just words and how to arrange them.

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[info]missyvumyg
2008-07-17 04:43 pm UTC (link)
The way words are used is far more important to the student of a second language than the way they are pronounced.

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[info]nancylebov
2007-08-28 02:35 pm UTC (link)
I'm guessing that "combative" has to do with telling people there's a fight they need to join. It isn't combat with the people you're trying to recruit, it's combat with a third party.

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-28 10:11 pm UTC (link)
(bemusedoutsider)

That would be my guess: "We've all got to get together and fight those Godless soft on terrorism inheritance-taxing tree-huggers in their welfare Cadillacs to save our guns. Right here in River City, with a capital G...."

No time to look into it, but it might be useful to see how John Dean did local organizing to revive Dem supporters for the 2006 victory. His thing was to reverse the "write it off" strategy that former DNC people had been using, and try to get a Dem at least running in every race in every state.

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[info]kestrels_nest
2007-08-28 02:49 pm UTC (link)
I would have used "challenging" rather than "combative", myself, in the sense that the language needs to challenge the audience to act on their own behalf rather than just listen passively.

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[info]starcat_jewel
2007-08-28 04:57 pm UTC (link)
I think that "evangelical" might be a better word than "combative". This implies all the things you're talking about, but with the emphasis on inspiration rather than battle-readiness.

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-28 05:45 pm UTC (link)
Combative... I'd say persistent willingness not to placate the people you need to convince. That means being willing to be personally unpopular, to be the target of the group's resentment, for your ultimate purpose of getting it off its collective behind and moving toward where you want it to go.

Meg Umans

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[info]perlmonger
2007-08-29 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Yes: that's how I read it. "Combative" as in not apologetic, or defensive, or reactive. Having the courage of one's convictions and stating them, in much the same sort of way as the the Dems (in the US) or LibDems (in the UK) don't.

Part of what underlies this diffidence is coming from a relativistic PoV; part is from an ingrained a priori expectation that any left-liberal argument will be rejected even before it's made. Which comes back to winning back the terms of reference in which political and social debate takes place.

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[info]solri
2007-08-28 08:40 pm UTC (link)
What was said about Rove applies very well to the current ruling party in Turkey. It's Hammas without the suicide bombers.

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[info]aenodia
2007-08-29 04:33 am UTC (link)
I think "combative, self-interested, and non-seigneurial" illustrates the lesson of using words that are out of the ordinary lead to misunderstandings. We are all guessing what Lemann meant by these words.
I can guess that it means appealing to people's self interest, speak to people as an equal, and get them stirred up and committed to action.

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In re what we might call our Movement ...
[info]almeda
2007-08-29 01:15 pm UTC (link)
What about Compassionate Moderates?

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