ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-08-16 09:25:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Linguistics; political language; persuasion; the "folksy" register of English...
I posted The Tale of the Wicked Welfare Queen, not because I like that story but to serve as a pattern to be analyzed and used for constructing equally effective stories that could present the ideas of the non-Right. And I said "I am hoping to see some new stories from you in response to the pattern, either in this journal or in your own LJs, whichever you prefer." [info]dpolicar very graciously, and very helpfully, responded by posting The Tale of the Virtuous Rescued Family [Politician's Version -- draft .01], which you can read in full at http://ozarque.livejournal.com/437254.html?replyto=8545542 . I'm grateful.

In that story, [info]dpolicar used the following items:
an' for "and"; doin' for "doing"; 'em for "them"; 'course for "of course"; plus "ain't," "ain't gonna," and "they don't want nobody else to..."

Which led [info]kelsied to tell [info]dpolicar ...
"You're not the only one I notice doing this. But when folks want to seem genuine, they adopt a folksy accent."

... and led [info]dpolicar to respond:
"For what it's worth, I first wrote this in the register I'm most comfortable with. But in that register, I try hard to be precise and specific and anchor points with facts and logic. But the whole discussion on this blog up to this point has stressed again and again how ineffectual that is, so I ended up rewriting in a different register. As has been pointed out, I not only still ended up with too many specifics, but I botched the register in the process. I don't disagree with either of those judgments... this isn't a register I'm comfortable with and I cringe at hearing it, let alone writing it. For that matter, I also cringe at hearing the version of the Welfare Queen story we're using as our model of a good story in this exercise."

But suppose we take another look at the version of the story I wrote to be used as a pattern -- the one I imposed on you, which may well have been a mistake -- repeated here so you don't have to go find it:

======
The Tale Of The Wicked Welfare Queen

Generic Version

"You know what really gets to me? Makes my blood boil? I work like a dog, just trying to keep a roof over my family's head and food on our table, and I pay every last damn penny of my taxes! And what does the government do with my money? Hey... let me tell you what they do with it! They give it to a Welfare Queen that drives around in a fancy pink Cadillac, and wears a mink coat, and has $150,000.00 in her bank account.... You know what's in my bank account? Maybe enough to pay my phone bill, if I'm lucky! And you know why that is? It's because most of my money, what I make working my tail off every single day, goes to the damn Welfare Queens!"

Politician's Version

"You know what really gets to people? Makes their blood boil? You work like a dog, just trying to keep a roof over your family's head and food on your table, and you pay every last penny of your taxes! And what does this administration do with your money? Hey... let me tell you what they do with it! They give it to a Welfare Queen that drives around in a fancy pink Cadillac, and wears a mink coat, and has $150,000.00 in her bank account.... And all the time she's lying around her swimming pool eating chocolates and getting a nice tan, you know what's in your bank account? Maybe enough to pay your phone bill, if you're lucky! If this administration has had the decency to let you keep that much of your own money! And you know why that is? It's because most of your money, the money you make working your tail off every single day, goes to the damn Welfare Queens!"
=====

Notice, please, that this story-as-pattern doesn't use the non-standard items that are in The Tale of the Virtuous Rescued Family. It doesn't use "ain't," it doesn't chop off pieces of "and" and "them," it doesn't use "gonna" or "ain't" or double negatives. It doesn't so much as drop a G, from beginning to end. The closest it comes to being non-standard is when it says "a Welfare Queen that drives around in a fancy pink Cadillac" instead of "a Welfare Queen who drives around in a fancy pink Cadillac"; that might get a red-penciled "too informal" on an essay exam (unless there'd been enough instances of "who" in a row previously to "justify" the switch to "that" for the red-pencil-wielder.) Nevertheless, the variety of language I used makes [info]dpolicar wince. The question is: Why? What's triggering that wince?


Maybe it would be easier to answer that question if we looked at a few examples of less "folksy" language. The first two -- from a fund-raising e-mail that turned up in my inbox this morning, courtesy of George Lakoff's Rockridge Institute -- are:

1. "And Rockridge followed up with cogent analyses..."

2. "When Karl Rove resigned, Rockridge again offered its unique and important perspective on the press coverage of Rove and others who accrete power by unscrupulous means: http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/karl-rove ."

Conversations with ordinary people aren't going to include the words "cogent" or "accrete." [Or "nurturant."] This linguist is of the opinion that Rockridge isn't offering its unique and important perspective to ordinary people. And there's a persistent belief that if you are going to talk to ordinary people you will have to say "ain't" and drop your Gs and double your negatives.

My other two examples -- from people explaining the common journalistic practice of standardizing non-standard language when you're allegedly quoting it -- were quoted recently at Language Log:

3. From journalist Howard Bryant: "I really don't like to make people look stupid, especially when I understand what they're saying."

4. From editor Emilio Garcia-Ruiz: "The meaning of what the athlete is saying is not altered, just the grammar. It's rooted in the belief that you shouldn't embarrass someone whose command of grammar is weak."

That is: Ordinary people who are using non-standard language look stupid, and even though their command of the grammar of their native dialect is flawless, they look as though their command of "real" grammar is weak; those who aren't ordinary people have an obligation to do what they can to keep that from happening. That is: Those whose command of the grammar of Standard American English is strong can feel entirely confident of their ability to rewrite what the person "quoted" said without altering the meaning of that person's utterance, despite having little or no command of the grammar of the dialect in question.

We -- on both the Right and the non-Right -- have to get this mess straightened out, somehow, or we're never going to be able to reason together. And the most powerful tool we have available for straightening out this kind of mess is the good story.


(Post a new comment)


[info]dpolicar
2007-08-16 03:05 pm UTC (link)
(nods) I mostly agree with what you're saying here, but want to clarify what makes me wince here.

I've had conversations with people who say things like "And what does the government do with my money? Hey... let me tell you what they do with it! They give it to a Welfare Queen that drives around in a fancy pink Cadillac, and wears a mink coat, and has $150,000.00 in her bank account..."

They make me wince. Not because of the use of "that" instead of "who" or the informality or formality of the grammar in use or whether word endings are dropped... come to that, I've had this conversation in Spanish as well as English, and my Spanish grammar is atrocious, and the speaker's grammar was way "better" than mine, and it still made me wince. Not because of their grammar, but because they approached senselessness.

My response is not to correct their grammar, but to ask questions like "Really? $150,000? That's a lot of money... how much does welfare pay a month? I mean, I make a pretty good salary and I don't drive a fancy Cadillac and I haven't managed to save that much... are you sure about your numbers?"

And sure, part of that is that I'm on the other side and unsympathetic to start with. But I've also had conversations with people who insist that the reason their child isn't receiving a proper education is because the government spends all its money on S&L bailouts, and I'm more sympathetic to them, but I still find myself questioning what underlies the assertion.

Which, needless to say, accomplishes little, and I'm not suggesting it as a way for dialog to go. I'm just saying it's the formal structure of the story that makes me cringe, not the dialect or the register.

But, of course, this sort of reliance on reasoning and judgments of plausibility is precisely the sort of thing we wanted to get away from in the formulation of a Good Story. And I'm well aware that it is linked to speech patterns that involve using words like like "cogent" and "accrete."

My personal difficulty here is that my conversations do, in fact, involve words like that, and involve at least the shared assertion that reasoning is important. My preferred register, the one I use in conversation much of the time, is one that, as you say, "ordinary people" don't talk.

And I knew that, so I took a stab at transposing into a register that isn't at all comfortable or natural to me, while at the same time constructing a story that makes no damned sense at all.
And, unsurprisingly, ended up with something fake-sounding and overly long and condescending-sounding and unconvincing.
And, as I'd hoped, other people picked it up and improved on it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]haikujaguar
2007-08-16 03:36 pm UTC (link)
But, of course, this sort of reliance on reasoning and judgments of plausibility is precisely the sort of thing we wanted to get away from in the formulation of a Good Story.

A Good Story has to be plausible, or you won't suspend your disbelief.

I find the Wicked Welfare Queen story as told here unbelievable, for instance. Partly because I've never heard it told with those particulars (Cadillacs? Cadillacs aren't reliable symbols of anything anymore, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that), and partly because it's so over-the-top that it sounds like a caricature rather than a real story meant to persuade people.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Response to haikujaguar... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-16 04:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-16 07:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-16 10:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-16 10:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-16 10:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]almeda, 2007-08-16 11:19 pm UTC (Expand)
okay liberal stories? - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-17 12:15 am UTC (Expand)
Re: okay liberal stories? - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-17 12:19 am UTC (Expand)
Re: okay liberal stories? - [info]kelsied, 2007-08-18 07:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: okay liberal stories? - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-18 07:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: okay liberal stories? - [info]kelsied, 2007-08-19 10:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-08-16 04:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to dpolicar...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-16 04:05 pm UTC (link)
First and foremost, I want to be sure you know how grateful I am to you for being willing to try writing that story, even though it meant writing in a register you're not comfortable with. If you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have had a post this morning. And then I want to thank you for proposing an explanation for your "wince" reaction to my version of the Welfare Queen story. Thank you for your help; this is a very difficult discussion, and I need all the help I can get.

I keep remembering -- when I was explaining that the reason I haven't been able to make peace with [most] feminists is that their communication seems to me to exclude the women from my own ethnic heritage -- the comments that went, basically: "But how can I talk to those women?"

And I keep wondering whether, when Jesus was telling the story of the Good Samaritan, there were people in the audience who wanted to know the Samaritan's name, and the name of the inn where he took the man he found lying in the road, and whether the man ever paid him back the money given to the innkeeper, and what sort of return an investment of that kind might be expected to produce, and whether it wouldn't have been more rational to pass the injured man by in order to avoid additional obligations that might well make it difficult for the Samaritan to meet the needs of those for whom he was legally responsible... and so on and so on and so on.



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-08-16 04:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]michaelsullivan, 2007-08-16 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-08-16 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-16 07:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dpolicar... - [info]michaelsullivan, 2007-08-16 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-08-16 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Dipolicar's and Ozarque's both made me wince and skim (so I didn't catch all the unclear logic, sorry :-).

I skimmed D's because of the hokey folksy stuff -- and unfortunately some almost as bad does get printed or broadcast, and I can't help but believe it turns the target audience off too. Even if they do talk that way themselves, they know 'you' don't, so they suspect fakery, condescension, incompetence, etc. But as a fiction writer I totally agree with the process of using an over the top style to keep focused in a first draft, especially if other writers are there to tone it down later.

I skimmed O's because her use of VAP's etc was so effective, evoking so much anger/hostility/etc. It may be effective for the target audience we're all trying to reach; it sounded pretty much like what I hear on hate radio or see sometime in RR publications, and I skim it there too.

Some other exemplars that could be plugged in to the negative template are the Scooter Libby thing, any Enron executives that have never yet got sentenced, HMO horror stories....

But then we got to talking about finding more positive stories. I wonder if they take a different template. (Paul Harvey's 'rest of the story' worked for positive or negative.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]step_three
2007-08-16 03:22 pm UTC (link)
If one is highly trained in using 'cogent', or 'accrete', etc, how does one learn not to do this, and instead to tell good stories?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to step_three...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-16 04:31 pm UTC (link)
That is exactly the question that I am trying to find an answer to. If I knew the answer -- if I could just say, "Here are the six [or however many] steps" and list them -- I'd do that. I have no idea what those steps are. It's like explaining how to write good melodies.

Thank you for asking the question.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Response to step_three... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-08-16 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-16 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-08-16 08:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-08-16 09:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]kelsied, 2007-08-18 07:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]kelsied, 2007-08-18 07:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-16 11:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - (Anonymous), 2007-08-16 05:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - [info]voxwoman, 2007-08-16 06:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... - (Anonymous), 2007-08-16 05:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to Meg Umans... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-24 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to step_three... and to dpolicar... - [info]kmd, 2007-08-16 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
The verbal climate in my house ...
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-08-16 03:22 pm UTC (link)
... is far from ordinary, I am reminded. "Cogent" and "accrete" aren't rare for me. I'm more likely to say "Allow me to elucidate" than "Let me explain." It's not that I don't have a casual conversation mode, just that my casual mode has a lot more words in it than most people's do. I like words. I like to play with them. I find that in most instances of "nobody uses X in ordinary conversation," X is likely to be an ordinary word for me.

I tend to gravitate towards people whose vocabulary is large enough to keep up with mine; and I'm *strongly* attracted to spending time with the few whose vocabulary is bigger. I know that this is not typical, and in many subcultures, firmly disapproved. But it's part of who I am. I have some ability to switch registers according to audience -- but active attempts to pry words away from me tend to get treated like attempts to pick my pocket.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Response to step_three...
[info]mswyrr
2007-08-16 08:33 pm UTC (link)
I feel simpatico with [info]ysabetwordsmith. I love words, I love packing them around an idea like plaster of Paris, so that the shape of the thing can be seen. I'm pretty casual in my speech, but when there's a word that I need to better disclose an idea's shape, I'm damn well gonna use it.

"Cogent" seems melodious to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]anderyn
2007-08-16 04:40 pm UTC (link)
The Wicked Welfare story sounded exactly like something one of my relatives (born family, not grown-up family) would say.

Of course, I have a daughter now, who is on welfare partially while she raises two children without child support and tries to manage on a part-time job while going to college, so I know better.

(Reply to this)


[info]ysabel
2007-08-16 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Conversations with ordinary people aren't going to include the words "cogent" or "accrete." [Or "nurturant."]

You know, I really want to respond to this with "Really?" Because it seems surprising to me. Cogent and accrete are both words I use regularly and comfortably. Particularly "cogent", I use that all the time.

And then I think about how often I, working in a tech environment with people with (I think) large vocabularies, have people looking at me blankly for words I've used. Especially when they're ones that don't seem particularly far out to me (like, say, cogent). And I really suspect you're right.

(Reply to this)


[info]dagoski
2007-08-16 05:31 pm UTC (link)
I think we're actually beyond the Welfare Queen mythology at this point in time. That's just something you haven't heard since the days of Welfare Reform in the 1990s. Something even more pernicious is at work nowadays. The media coverage of the poor, almost universally depicts the criminal and the addict, the people who aren't even trying anymore. Yes, these people are a fact of life in poor neighborhoods, but their visibility distorts the reality. The reality is that most people in poor urban neighborhoods are trying to get by, save up and move on towards a better life, but you don't see them and they prefer it that way because visibility can make them prey to criminals and resentful neighbors.

When you talk about Urban Poverty, you're talking about dense, decayed inner city neighborhoods that have had little public or private investment in them for decades(most of my adult life anyway). These places look like hell. At least the neighborhoods in Philadelphia certainly do. The myth of the Welfare Queen started the notion that we do a lot for "these people". So, what we're getting now is the idea that poverty is utterly intractable because we've been throwing money at the problem since the 60s and have gotten nowhere. In the current environment of conspicuous religiosity, this gets wrapped into a sort of morality fable. Why are they poor? Because they're morally deficient. I actually heard this stated as fact during the time I worked in the suburbs. Many people in the wealthier suburbs look Urban Poverty as a byproduct of weak moral character. Granted, poverty can wear away at one's character, but even the most virtuous can wind up poor. Also, there's a secular version of this fable that comes up in adjacent working class areas(or even rural ones). That version holds that we, the hardworking people, have discipline, industry, and ambition and all the other virtues that allow one to make a living. The people in the poor neighborhoods do not.


Now, I'd argue that poverty is what Horst Rittel would've called a Wicked Problem(hard to state, no clear stopping rule, solutions have unintended consequences, and so on), but that does not give those of us in the larger society an excuse to turn away. Unfortunately, talking about solving poverty tends to turn away the working class because of their own anxieties about becoming poor. So, whosoever wants to tackle poverty has got to shore up the working and middle class to keep them from hitting poverty and to turn them into allies.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]archangelbeth
2007-08-16 06:10 pm UTC (link)
Huuuuuuuh... Which is why the "tax the rich" meme shows up, which sounds good to start with (the rich are blatantly not about to become poor) -- it's not taxing the people who are so close to becoming poor -- but once people hit a point where they're feeling more comfortable about their finances, becomes a threat because they fear being put back down to that "day to day" level?

I probably didn't explain that right. O:/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-16 11:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-16 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-17 12:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-17 12:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-17 12:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-17 12:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-17 01:06 am UTC (Expand)
more than three swimming pools - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-17 01:00 am UTC (Expand)
Re: more than three swimming pools - [info]ethesis, 2007-08-20 02:52 am UTC (Expand)

[info]dpolicar
2007-08-16 06:11 pm UTC (link)
100% agreed. Although of course this notion that poverty is the outward sign of moral deficiency isn't new, either.

That said, I do think it's easier to look at older stories if one's goal is to think about the style of storytelling. The current stories are still in the process of taking their final shape, they're harder to separate from their background, there's more distraction.

But I do find myself thinking a lot about the " is God's Punishment for " story. For example, Falwell's claim that abortionists, feminists, and gay rights activists caused God to withdraw His protection of the US and allow the WTC bombing to happen... or Robertson's bit about how God will send terrorists, earthquakes, tornadoes, and meteor strikes to punish Florida for similar "sins."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2007-08-16 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dagoski
2007-08-16 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Something I forgot to actually write up in my comment above. Right now in the American consciousness, poverty is something that other people suffer. If we talk about poverty in terms of people we actually know, it's about how grandma and grandpa made through the Great Drepression with nothing else but their own grit. Luckily my family always said they made through the Depression thanks to the WPA, so I've never been burdened with this moralistic view of poverty and prosperity. Anyway, poverty is about them so when conservatives demonize the poor, they score points by creating an enemy to project anxieties on. Progressives can get into trouble for failing to address the middle class' needs. This election cycle may change all that. Between the Healthcare Crisis that's been brewing for twenty years now and the chaos created by the sub prime mortgage market collapse, poverty is going to be looming a lot closer to all us than it has before. Poverty may well become more about us than them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Response to dagoski...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-16 07:52 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for posting this; it's helpful. I have to tell you, though, that in the area where I live, the Welfare Queen story is just as vigorous as it ever was.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Response to dagoski... - [info]dagoski, 2007-08-16 07:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Urban/rural - (Anonymous), 2007-08-17 08:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Urban/rural - [info]almeda, 2007-08-17 11:12 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]xthread
2007-08-16 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Are you familiar with Mama's Bank Account?
It's a tad orthogonal to the exercise you're pursuing, but it might interest you, in that it is essentially a set of teaching stories around the theme 'times may be tough, but we can get by by all pitching it.'

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to _xthread_....
[info]ozarque
2007-08-16 07:53 pm UTC (link)
I'm not familiar with it, no -- but thanks for mentioning it. I'll go Google for it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

A sudden realization
[info]almeda
2007-08-16 08:52 pm UTC (link)
I was working out in my head how to try to explain that -- aside from any good it might do for the individual homeless person -- proper HELP for homeless people pays off for society at large in innumerable ways, when the phrase, "There but for the Grace of God, go I" came to mind.

And I suddenly realized that although *I* believe this, and it affects much of what I do in a day, many people in my life who continually try to talk to me about how I need a personal relationship with Christ ... do not believe it at all.

If they believed it was the BARE GRACE OF GOD standing between them and the circumstances that cause such horrendous misery in our lower-rent, higher-crime districts, I can't but help think they'd act differently. But deep down, they believe they deserve what they got, and I don't. In fact, I know I didn't deserve it, but that I got it anyway ...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: A sudden realization
[info]archangelbeth
2007-08-16 08:58 pm UTC (link)
They believe they already have God's grace, and therefore... are safe?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: A sudden realization - [info]kmd, 2007-08-16 11:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: A sudden realization - [info]almeda, 2007-08-16 11:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: A sudden realization - [info]kmd, 2007-08-17 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: A sudden realization - [info]almeda, 2007-08-17 12:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]maevele
2007-08-16 08:55 pm UTC (link)
I find it just plain weird that so many of the responses are focusing on pointing out that the words you claim aren't commonly used by "ordinary" people are used by the posters on a regular basis. Because after all, people posting on your blog are going to be on average more language aware/oriented than "ordinary" folk, so what is common for them is not "common" in the broader sense.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]xthread
2007-08-16 11:01 pm UTC (link)
I think you missed it - people are commenting because they think of the terms as normal and common.
And that is a fact that anyone who spends their day communicating professionally just isn't true; 'cogent' and 'accrete' aren't part of most people's routine lexicon.
That's not a matter of 'gosh, golly, people are being highbrow.' That's a matter of 'People, stop acting like a damfool if you want anyone to listen to you.'

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]maevele, 2007-08-16 11:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nadyalec
2007-08-17 02:36 am UTC (link)
Please don't give up on this thread. It feels very Important to me.

Personally, I switch back and forth between non-standard language and academic/ professional language all the time. It's not that hard. I can talk to all kinds of people without being patronizing.

Here's my attempt at a story. It's a true story btw. And this is one of the ways I talk.

I used to live with my boyfriend Ricardo, back in Virginia. He was really hard-working-- he didn't take a vacation for years. He worked these jobs in customer service, handling phone calls, and that is a really hard job. Over the five years we dated, he got laid off three times. Not because he didn't work hard-- because that's the way it is in customer service, people get laid off all the time.

After this one layoff, when he didn't have medical insurance, his back was all messed up with herniated disks. That was so hard, he was in constant pain, but we managed to figure out a way for him to get some level of medical care, enough that he was able to interview for jobs and find work and have health care again. He found a job he really liked-- it didn't pay as much as it should, but he felt appreciated and liked his coworkers and was able to actually help people.

Ricardo was a great guy. A couple years after I moved away he died of a stroke. And at the funeral a friend said that he hadn't been taking his blood pressure medication because, even though he was working full time, he couldn't afford it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to nadyalec...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-17 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for encouraging me not to give up, and for your feeling that the thread is important. I agree with you that it's important . I agree with you that code-switching is not that hard. But I'm not getting anywhere. I don't seem to be able to get across even the simplest and most basic things I'm trying to say. I'm not sure that there's any justification for going on digging this dry well deeper and deeper. Maybe it's deep enough now, and it's time to climb out.

Thank you also for posting your story.



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

analyzing the negative stories that worked - (Anonymous), 2007-08-17 06:32 pm UTC (Expand)
that was me - [info]bemusedoutsider, 2007-08-17 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)
suggested ad campaign (or meme, or something)
[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-08-17 04:10 am UTC (link)
I haven't got much with a plot yet, but how about an ad campaign? With 2 big catchy pictures for each screen/page. You know, a series of such ads, each naming a different fatcat and different expenditures and different causes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
One year's maintenance on Paris Hilton's #3 swimming pool: $xxxx.00

One year's maintenance on this daycare center: $xxx.00

Knowing who to tax: priceless
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Then maybe in very fine print something informative about who has actually made the tax increases on the ... 20-40k? bracket. Or would that make it all seem too professional?

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2007-08-17 09:44 am UTC (link)
"Those whose command of the grammar of Standard American English is strong can feel entirely confident of their ability to rewrite what the person "quoted" said without altering the meaning of that person's utterance, despite having little or no command of the grammar of the dialect in question."

This reminds me of an example of Arabic diglossia I read about once - apparently, the last speech of Sadat appeared in the newspapers in colloquial, with a note appended apologising for its state, as (what with the assassination and all) the editors had not had time to translate it into proper literary Arabic. Even the president may speak "dialect", but perish the thought that his words should appear in print without being properly dressed up. Of course, in Arabic the change that involves is considerably larger than in English, but the effect is similar. I'd love to hear more about what effects you think this has.

(Reply to this)


[info]kelsied
2007-08-17 09:21 pm UTC (link)
I've been thinking about this a lot. Particularly the question of... if not by using nonstandard language, and if not by using million-dollar words, then how do we reach people "at their level"?

I think this is a false dichotomy.

There's a whole array of studies about how to reach people in a way that is accessible without being patronizing. It's a professional skill for many of us. The problem is that the speechwriters don't seem to be among the people developing this skill.

Write at a sixth grade level. Use the shortest paragraphs, sentences and words possible, without becoming inaccurate (this is different from "losing meaning"). Break up long sentences with punctuation. Keep your grammar intact, especially the simple things, such as you were taught in grade-school. Test your language on representative focus groups on important issues, and pay attention to the points where they stop paying attention or start editing your text -- even if their edits don't make sense, they point to areas where you are being unclear.

I'm digressing, but it's an important point. The science, the study of how to communicate in "plain english," exists at a practical, business level. The question I want to ask is ... if we know that we know HOW to do this, then why isn't it making its way into the political arena?

Cynically, I wonder if it isn't because businesses lose money when they miscommunicate with their audiences. Politicians don't seem to have the same problem.

(Reply to this)


[info]takumashii
2007-08-18 01:24 am UTC (link)
The "wicked welfare queen" story plays into a lot of presuppositions. If I can put down the beliefs encapsulated in this story, along with some counterarguments:

If you give them help, poor people will take advantage of you <-->If you give them help, poor people will make their lives better and pay it forward

Liberals think the government knows better than real everyday people <--> Liberals think people want to help each other, and we can do more together than we could alone

Taxes are mainly a burden on average people, who need the money <--> Taxes are mainly a burden on the rich, who don't need the money

The question in my mind is: Is the "wicked welfare queen" story so effective on its own merits? Or is it so effective because people already believe that the government wastes tax money on people who don't deserve it? (I didn't move to the U.S., or have much political awareness, until Clinton was president, so I'm not in the best position to judge this.)

Obviously a story won't really resonate unless it accords with what people already believe. That said: I think the best progressive stories we have are "Walter Reed" and "Paris Hilton." The tale of the Virtuous Rescued Family-- I'm not sure how true that rings, just because people don't trust government enough to believe it. Such stories happen! They absolutely happen. But it's hard to write them in such a way that doesn't sound too-good-to-be-true.

The Tale of Walter Reed: We asked young men to risk their lives for our country's security. And then, when they needed us, we failed them. We sent them to a hospital with rats and mold on the walls. They deserve better than that, and I know that we can do better than that. We need to do right by them.
(At this point I think it would be less effective if I added "As long as we continue fighting an unwinnable war, we're going to have more hurt young men and less money to make sure they get the care they deserve"--too anti-military?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-08-18 01:59 am UTC (link)
Oh, good one. And "Walter Reid Hospital" is as good as a visual image: it's a famous old name, a place that has been respected and trusted for decades. "Bush fouled up with Walter Reid???!!! He put THAT in to 'privitazation' and they let it run down so they could squeeze more profit? For years the government ran it like a flagship, honored the name and the veterans -- and Private Monopoly 'Enterpise' trashed it! A bunch of bean-counting chicken hawks who never saw combat, just like Bush! So much for Bush privitizing stuff!"

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2007-08-18 03:52 pm UTC (link)
After reading the several threads on this topic with intense interest over several days, I realize I also have a positive (true) story, but probably not one that would make a strongly effective talking point. After our oldest son and his first wife were divorced, she and the two children lived on food stamps in subsidized housing for a while. (She was working, BTW.) Now, she has been off public assistance for many years, has a good job with fringe benefits, and is currently looking to buy a house. The system CAN work, sometimes with impressive success. However, I hope emphasis on success stories wouldn't perpetuate the negative stereotype that the 10-20% who are so disabled mentally, emotionally, or chemically that they may never be able to live fully independent lives belong to the category of Alfie Doolittle's "undeserving poor" and should be left to starve in the gutter. (That attitude doesn't seem to target the physically disabled so much, as long as their disability is visible enough.)

(Reply to this)

"The Worthy Poor"
[info]carbonelle
2007-08-29 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Unfortunately, for the progressive, the Tale of the Virtuous Rescued Family dovetails nicely with nearly every anti-progressive agenda:

"And we were only able to help this good woman because the money we sent wasn't being frittered away on those good-for-nothing Welfare Queens and all those stupid interfering regulations and overpaid buROcrats who never did an honest day's work...."

By-the-by: As someone who's been on the short end of the budget stick, when it comes to being a military dependent; I know who it is who "done unto me" and mine. And it wasn't the Right...

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…