ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-08-02 08:08:00
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Eldering; winding down; afternote...
I had said, in one example of me fussing at myself, "Okay, so there are strangers who have considerable respect for you, but some of your own children are still waiting for you to publish what they refer to as a Real Book, and you still haven't made peace with the feminist community!"

And [info]cmeckhardt, [info]fjm, and [info]bibliofile all asked for an explanation of "you still haven't made peace with the feminist community!" That's fair enough, but it's not easy.

The objection that there is no one single "feminist community" is also fair, and accurate; I can only say that in this instance it's not relevant. Over the years I've been asked to speak to groups from all of the various branches of feminism, and -- without exception -- what I've said has made my audience angry with me.

Part of the problem is a set of philosophical differences, and I don't think there's any point in my listing those here. I've had no luck making them clear to audiences when I was actually there before them... when they could observe my body language and I could observe theirs, and we could interact on that basis. The chances of my being able to make them clear with nothing but the written word at my disposal are vanishingly small. I will, therefore, mention just the one practical difference that puts me at odds with the feminists (using that as an admittedly over-broad cover term). Here goes....

My perception is that none of the branches of feminism has been willing to make any real effort to reach the cultural group represented by women who get called "white trash" and "trailer park trash" even when they don't live in trailer parks. Women like Paula Jones. Women who are crippled by the Southern Mountain dialects they speak -- women whose dialects very effectively bar them from any chance of moving out of their cultural group. This is my cultural group; I escaped from it -- by sheer blind luck -- because I was born into its "gentry" branch, and I was dogged-stubborn, and telling me I couldn't do something was a sure way to make me fight till I found a way to do it. The books and articles that feminists write, and the speeches they give, and the courses they teach, and the conferences they offer -- in my opinion -- systematically neglect those women. When I speak to feminist groups, of whatever theoretical orientation, I feel duty-bound to express my dissatisfaction about this, and to ask that they do something to fix the problem. That has never yet led to a peaceful resolution.


[And while I'm here: This is analogous to my perpetual demand that Big Name Linguists -- linguists who already are full professors and already have tenure and already have secure status and couldn't be hurt in any way by an accusation that they've stooped to "popularization" -- write something, for once, that would make linguistics clear to ordinary people. That demand never leads to a peaceful resolution either. That gets me responses like "Oh, for gods sake, Suzette, 'ordinary' people don't read!" Uhuh. Many of the women I want so much to reach with feminism are part of that population of "ordinary people."]


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[info]muffyjo
2007-08-02 01:22 pm UTC (link)
I thought you might be interested in this article from the Washington Post. Mostly I thought you might be interested in it because it talks about how even when you ask for the money (and you're female), you can't win (even among females). Talk about an issue that would make one tongue-tied!

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Response to muffyjo... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-02 02:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]elorie
2007-08-02 01:23 pm UTC (link)
My perception is that none of the branches of feminism has been willing to make any real effort to reach the cultural group represented by women who get called "white trash" and "trailer park trash" even when they don't live in trailer parks.

Ah. Yes. I love pointing out classism in purportedly liberal circles whenever I encounter it. It gets me in plenty of fights, too. Which doesn't bother me much :)

I am about to start in on a Women's Studies graduate certificate at the University of Georgia, along with my MFA. We'll see how that goes. So far, the department seems really positive/supportive, even of my weird ideas (like running a feminist science fiction reading group). So I am hopeful.

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Response to elorie... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 01:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gauroth
2007-08-02 01:25 pm UTC (link)
It always, always startles me that my women friends in this commuter-town north of London, England, dismiss 'feminism' as something that doesn't apply to them. Feminism is for every woman, not just the intellectually or politically active! /end rant.

As for popularizing linguistics: yes, please! I'm an English graduate, and lingustics is - ah - a closed book to me. I've read a bit of David Crystal's work, but the subject is just so vast and confusing. Only Bill Bryson's 'Mother Tongue' made sense to me: but there's nothing I've been able to read that takes the subject further.

Your posts are always so thought-provoking. Thank you. I shall continue to lurk!

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(no subject) - [info]writerwench, 2007-08-02 02:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gauroth, 2007-08-11 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]writerwench, 2007-08-11 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gauroth, 2007-08-12 11:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to gauroth... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 01:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to gauroth... - [info]dolmena, 2007-08-03 03:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to gauroth... - [info]gauroth, 2007-08-03 10:19 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cbpotts
2007-08-02 01:28 pm UTC (link)
As long as you acknowledge that particular bit of reality, you're never going to make peace with the feminist community -- diverse though it may be.

For all the talk about gender equality and opportunity for all, my experience has been that self-styled feminists are by and large far more comfortable engaging with the desperately poor and oppressed half way around the world (We have to do something RIGHT NOW about fgm in sub-Saharan Africa!) than dealing with the problems women a handful of miles and a lifetime of experience away with encounter on an ongoing basis.

Classism is not only alive and well, it's getting stronger by the day, and if you don't make the economic cut, your issues don't matter. I'm not sure how much of this is dictated by accent/dialect as much as it is by vocabulary -- words are still power, but you have to know them and you have to know how to use them.

People avoid what makes them uncomfortable, and the whole white trash phenomenon makes people extremely uncomfortable. After all, 'there but for the grace of God'...

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(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-02 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cbpotts, 2007-08-03 12:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-03 08:21 pm UTC (Expand)
just a passing thought - [info]cheerful_snack, 2007-08-18 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to cbpotts.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 01:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-08-04 04:50 am UTC (Expand)
Response to danaseilhan... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-04 01:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-17 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-02 01:29 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps it's a problem of linguistics? Meaning that if I, reared by two Northern-born parents in a more or less academic family, try to talk feminism to the women you're talking about, a huge amount of my terminology is going to turn them off and get me labeled as something totally alien to them and probably repugnant to them. Many of us don't come out of that setting and those who do are apparently in flaming revolt against it.

As an analogy (ONLY!), you've probably read things by fanatical atheists whose view of religion is a child's stereotype of the most rigid, narrow fundamentalism. They'll tell anyone who cares to hear and a large part of us who don't that all religion is wicked and evil and equates to their mental construct.

Likewise I've had to deal with people who sneer that "the Left" hates America and is full of traitors and wants to roll over for terrorists." I tell them I'm of "the Left" and give my true position and they do one of two things: either they misread everything I say to fit their model, or they tell me I'm not really of 'The Left" at all because I'm being reasonable.

I've been in debate with a man who is virulently anti-feminist and his view is that of the man-hating radical who urges women to make false claims of rape and child abuse in order to line their pockets. (Seriously! John Xenakis on Generational Dynamics.) I state my position, which amounts to "women are people" very carefully and reasonably and he tells me I'm not a feminist at all because I'm not one of those man-hating (see above.)

Okay - I know this is dreadfully roundabout, but it seems applicable here. I think the feminist community and the rural women you're talking about will have such wildly different assumptions about the world and each other and use such totally different language about the same things that communication between them is too daunting for most of us to even try, at least on that subject. For instance, how would your average feminist take the statement that a woman running for president is somehow "not fitting" without dismissing the speaker as a woman-hating woman and a total reactionary? Because I know how they think and speak! And whatever degree of reasonableness I've arrived at concerning such cultural differences has been hard won and is probably still very precarious. And I hate to say it, but the current middle-aged-to-elder feminists are more ideological than anyone before them or since. Which is one reason younger women - another group we're not getting - very much including my daughter - flatly rejects the label while taking the gains for granted. They don't want to be crusaders, they want to be people, and the image of the old crusader is to well fixed in the public mind.

BTW - Just try and get the feminists I spoke of to use language understood by women of the culture you mentioned! Sigh - -

This is a job for a linguist superwoman. And you already have enough on your plate.

Pat, well accustomed to the feeling of speaking with total clarity and rationality and getting the blank stare reserved for someone babbling word salad in Low Martian.

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Response to idiotgrrl.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-04 01:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]haikujaguar
2007-08-02 01:41 pm UTC (link)
While I understand and respect your not wishing to discuss the philosophical differences you have with feminists, I find myself wistful about learning what they are. I too have my problems with these circles, and have no idea how to articulate it without everyone (myself included) becoming combative. I only know that something is out of sync, and that it gives me great grief when I make the mistake of embarking on any such discussion.

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(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-02 02:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]artfulruin, 2007-08-02 02:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-02 06:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-02 06:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-02 06:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]artfulruin, 2007-08-02 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-02 08:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-02 08:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-02 08:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to ysabel... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 02:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to ysabel... - [info]ysabel, 2007-08-03 02:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to ysabel... continued... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
LJ social dynamics - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-03 02:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ social dynamics... response to elfwreck... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 04:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: LJ social dynamics... response to elfwreck... - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-03 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to haikujaguar... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 01:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-02 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Also - back in my Darkover days, I got a story rejected without comment by MZB and probably made her furious with rage because I got into the head of a woman who hated the Free Amazons and refused to give a blanket to an Amazon volunteer firefighter. One of the older Amazons sniffed and said the woman was probably afraid their achievements would give the lie to the myth of the delicate, protected little woman.

Knowing said woman was probably a farmwife, I got into her head and immediately realized what she saw was that if the Amazon view of things prevailed, she would be expected to do men's work on top of her already full schedule of women's work, and she was already pushed to the limit. The only thing that kept her from being totally worked to death WAS the 'delicate and protected' myth, however feebly it operated in her environment. That's what she was protecting, the right of her and women like her not to go from churn to pulling the plow to --- well, the list is probably clear.

Believe me, MZB - a fugitive from that very environment - did NOT want to hear that. I imagine she nearly had a heart attack! But - which is feminist and which is, as the African American term puts it, womanist?

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-02 04:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2007-08-04 11:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ysabel
2007-08-02 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Certainly I have seen a lot of debate about classism and racism inside feminism (i.e. perpetrated by folks calling themselves feminists), so I don't think you're alone in your concerns about feminist focus.

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(no subject) - [info]perlandria, 2007-08-02 04:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2007-08-02 06:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dichroic
2007-08-02 02:10 pm UTC (link)
So the next question is how to reach those women?

One clear way is by addressing issues that are their own. How do you determine those issues? To use an example you gave a while back, one issue that should concern them is proper nutrition for their children. But if you're talking to a woman who believes that cola and marshmellow cereal is perfectly fine for her children (and who isn't entirely wrong because it's what she can afford that will keep them from going hungry) then how do you come in and convince her without being a patronizng outsider? How do you convince the Ozark version of the farmwife that [info]idiotgrrl comments about, above, that she can be a lawyer if she knows that will only be work added on top of raising babies and cleaning house and taking care of the farm? Especially when privileged women have gotten trapped for a few decades now in the double shift themselves?

I think I'm sounding challenging here, and that's not my intention - or at least, I don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing with your points in this post. I think you are right. But I do think that how we do it is going to be a pretty big challenge.

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Response to dichroic... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 02:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to dichroic... - [info]dichroic, 2007-08-07 12:01 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]deifire
2007-08-02 02:18 pm UTC (link)
My perception is that none of the branches of feminism has been willing to make any real effort to reach the cultural group represented by women who get called "white trash" and "trailer park trash" even when they don't live in trailer parks.

This is my cultural group as well, and I've brought up the same issues and experienced the same reaction. I often wind up feeling angry, frustrated, and usually a bit like my existence has been called into question. Because how could I have come from such a background, let alone still identify as one of those women, and have a graduate degree/use the vocabulary I do/read/even care and understand enough about the issues in question to show up? It just doesn't fit into a lot of people's worldview, and I'm still not sure what to do about it.

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Response to deifire... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-03 02:11 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cmeckhardt
2007-08-02 02:45 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much for answering our question. I too am curious about your disagreements with feminist thought but I believe you when you say that getting into them in this forum isn't a productive idea.

And then you for reminding us of one of the groups of women that feminist thought is failing. One of my personal unhappinesses with myself as a feminist is that I feel don't know how to reach *anyone* new, anyone who's not already receptive, but particularly I wouldn't know how to reach those of the rural poor, whose background is so different from mine. I appreciate the reminder that I and we are are neglecting these women; maybe if I keep banging my head on that conceptual wall I'll get somewhere.

And as you and others have said, I think dialect has a lot to do with it- certainly I have had the (shameful) experience of reacting badly to someone simply because of their dialect, and I have also had the experience of people reacting badly to me because I use the speech patterns associated with "educated people". I've made progress on correcting my anti-dialect prejudices, but I've had a harder time figuring out hot to make people who don't like the way that I speak more comfortable. (This is its own form of racial and class privilege, of course- but it suddenly occurs to me, pursuant to a conversation in my own journal, that since I am a homely fat woman many people automatically assume I'm nice and comfortable and mothering- so people who become hostile because of my dialect, *even given* the stereotypes of fat women, may be a harder row to hoe than I realized. Hmmmm.)

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Response to cmeckhardt... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-04 01:51 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]elfwreck
2007-08-02 02:52 pm UTC (link)
A lot of "feminism" wants nothing to do with married women with children, especially "unemployed" married women with children, unless they claim to want to be "rescued" from their current life.

They seem deeply offended at the idea that some women--quite a lot of them, it seems--want to do more-or-less what women have done for millennia, only with enough civil rights to avoid the atrocities that make that life-path unbearable. Some "feminists" are offended at the very notion of children, as if "womanhood" should have no connection to the female body, or at least not any connection that would imply a connection with the male body.

I think the combination of that and the idea that "uneducated" means "stupid and bigoted" both feed into the prejudice against "white trash."

I don't call myself a "feminist." It's a loaded word; too many people think it means "man-hating separatist." (This kind of attitude doesn't prevent me from using various other loaded labels--I call myself a witch--but I never felt any particular attachment to "feminist.")

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(no subject) - [info]voxwoman, 2007-08-02 03:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-02 04:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]perlandria, 2007-08-02 04:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-02 05:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]idiotgrrl, 2007-08-02 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]liveavatar, 2007-08-02 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mswyrr, 2007-08-02 11:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]liveavatar, 2007-08-02 11:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]victoriacatlady, 2007-08-03 06:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]liveavatar, 2007-08-03 12:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-08-02 08:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2007-08-02 09:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-03 12:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firebyrd, 2007-08-03 05:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-08-04 04:59 am UTC (Expand)
yes yes YES - [info]peneli, 2007-08-08 02:39 am UTC (Expand)
Response to haikujaguar and to others below... - [info]ozarque, 2007-08-04 02:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-03 12:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-03 02:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-17 10:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-17 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-17 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-17 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]debu_chan, 2007-08-19 02:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]debu_chan, 2007-08-19 02:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-19 04:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-08-19 06:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-08-19 07:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-19 01:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]debu_chan, 2007-08-19 03:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-20 01:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-20 01:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-20 02:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-20 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-20 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-21 11:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siamesegoth2, 2007-08-20 05:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bites_the_sun, 2007-08-20 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siamesegoth2, 2007-08-20 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bites_the_sun, 2007-08-20 07:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siamesegoth2, 2007-08-20 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bites_the_sun, 2007-08-20 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-08-20 10:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siamesegoth2, 2007-08-21 05:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-21 11:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]debu_chan, 2007-08-19 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_daisy_cutter, 2007-08-19 01:38 pm UTC (Expand)