ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-08-01 09:37:00
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Eldering; winding down....
First I want to thank all of you for your useful and interesting responses to my previous eldering post; your comments are providing me with much food for thought, and I will be posting responses as promptly as I can. I also want to say "thank you" separately to all of you who suggested alternatives to having to fuss with a wig, because I would never have thought of any of those things on my own.

And then I want to turn to something that [info]hilleviw wrote:

"I don't -- at all -- get the sense from you that the doing is done. On the contrary, your occasional lists of projects pending simply astonish me. If you were confining yourself to a chair, settling down to your crochet projects and an occasional gossip about the neighborhood, I might find it easier to accept that you perceive yourself as winding things down."

That sequence -- "winding things down" -- got my attention; it has a special significance for me, because I keep trying unsuccessfully to find some way to get to it.

I have spent my entire life, from my earliest childhood, setting up a hurdle to jump over, jumping over it, and then setting up another hurdle to jump over. I remember fretting, at age four, because although I had attended Miss Hungate's Kindergarten twice, and had distinguished myself on the triangle in rhythm band, I still hadn't finished real kindergarten -- a kindergarten that took place inside a school instead of inside a house -- and they wouldn't let me enroll in one until September. And here I am, at almost 71, still fretting. Scolding myself with stuff like this...


"Okay, so you got your Ph.D. in linguistics at UCSD and you published some linguistics textbooks -- but you've never had an article published in Language, and you're not a linguistics professor with a fancy salary and perks!"

"Okay, so you've published twelve science fiction novels, one of them a Science Fiction Book Club alternate selection, and you've had a story in Analog and a story at Scifi.com -- but you've never won a Nebula or a Hugo or a Tiptree or a [vamp till ready]!"

"Okay, so you've had a successful nonfiction self-help book series, and the major book clubs have taken quite a few of those books, but you've never won a nonfiction book award of any kind whatsoever!"

"Okay, so you had a Saxton Fellowship once and you've had a few National Science Foundation grants, but you've never had a Guggenheim!"

"Okay, so there are strangers who have considerable respect for you, but some of your own children are still waiting for you to publish what they refer to as a Real Book, and you still haven't made peace with the feminist community!"


And so on and so on and so on, in the same nonsensical fashion, through all the things I do, and always ending with the coda: "Get busy, lazybones! Time's a-wasting!" And of course the older I get, the less of that time there is left to waste.

I do know intellectually that this is just ridiculous. I have not spent my life lying around the pool searching through the box for the chocolates with the soft centers; I have worked very hard, always. I know, intellectually, that I really have done enough. But emotionally I don't feel that way. I continue to feel as though I've fallen short and am going to get a final grade of D-minus -- or worse, a grade of Incomplete! -- in Life.

Some of my offspring label this pathology of mine as "excessive ambition" and/or "excessive competitiveness." But I think they're wrong; I don't think that's what it is. I think it comes from just two things: the inflexible Ozark ethic of duty that my grandmother instilled in me when I was tiny; and the fact that all my life long people have constantly told me that I couldn't do things. As in...

"Oh, you'll never finish college!"
"Oh, you'll never be anything but a file clerk!"
"Oh, you'll never get a Ph.D.! You're not Ph.D. material!"
"Oh, you'll never publish a book! What makes you think anybody would want to read anything you wrote?"
"Oh, you'll never be able to live a normal life!" [This one from the doctors who insisted that I was going to be a helpless invalid if I didn't have the surgery they wanted me to have.]

And so on and so on and so on. Just looking at me, they could all tell that I wasn't going to be able to accomplish anything. Not once did anybody ever say to me: "You can be anything you want to be!" And every time I had to listen to one of these rants I had the same reaction: I gritted my teeth, and I swore to myself that I for sure would do whatever it was they said I would never be able to do. And once I'd done it, I could check it off my list.

Now I have to learn, somehow, to give up this habit. I have to come to the realization that it's no longer necessary for me to prove anything. But it's like any other bad habit .... hard to give up, especially after indulging in it for a lifetime. I'm working on it. Well... I'm trying hard to convince myself to start working on it.

I was so pleased the other day, listening to NPR, to hear Annie Dillard -- who has won all the awards, including a Pulitzer -- say she probably won't write another book, and to hear her say that that's because she is simply tired. Now that's a healthy attitude; that's sanity. And it was a comfort to hear her say it.


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[info]geojlc
2007-08-01 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I can appreciate that feeling of having to do something just because someone told you it was impossible...

I think I read somewhere that you were starting FLY lady? Did you try her trick of writing down what the negative voices were saying and then writing down something positive to go with them? It doesn't always work for me, but it does make me at least look at the fact that they are there. Once I recognize them, it is a bit easier to try and replace them with something better... :-)

I hope you have many the chance to do things you love simply because you love to do them!

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[info]cmeckhardt
2007-08-01 03:11 pm UTC (link)
As another person who feels (and "feel" is a very literal description here) she's never done enough, I was fascinated to read this. Thanks for explaining it. (Although in my case I think it's less a case of being motivated by what I haven't done than it is being motivated by what I could do- for instance, I am active in several artistic disciplines, and can nearly always think of something else I'd like to try in each of them.)

One phrase caught my eye, though- would you be willing to explain the task you perceive when you said "[make] peace with the feminist community"?

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[info]dichroic
2007-08-01 03:11 pm UTC (link)
I was wondering the other day if you noticed or had it called to your attention. In an LJ entry in the last few days, Elizabeth Bear ([info]matociquala), who's been publishing a really astonishing number of books lately, cited several authors who made it possible for her to do what she does without beign marginalized. You're listed in some very good company.

It's not even just what you've done directly, impressive though the list is. It's also the ripples, the effect you've had on other people and that they've perpetuated.

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[info]pgdudda
2007-08-01 03:11 pm UTC (link)
The "you'll never do [X]" phenomenon is not unique to you. I got it a lot when I was growing up: "You can't do [X] because you're hearing impaired!" Which led me to do all sorts of interesting things, like being an exchange student, playing the cello, and graduating from high school with honors while taking AP classes.

... but you're right, it is indeed a difficult reflex/habit to break! Though, quite frankly, I'd rather have to break myself of that habit at 70+ than be forced to break it due to all of the things that can go wrong when one approaches your age. If that helps you to view it as a blessing, great. If not, just call it my two centimes' worth... ;-)

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[info]tammy
2007-08-01 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this.

Thank you for all your writing.

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[info]nrc_eu
2007-08-01 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Suzette, I suspect that with the wisdom you have accumlated over a lifetime of accomplishment you will know when the time has arrived for you to "wind down." I hope I can learn to listen to my inner self as well as you do.

Until then ... damn the topedoes!

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[info]dagoski
2007-08-01 03:22 pm UTC (link)
I really understand how being told you'll never amount to much can instill the determination to prove them all wrong. It's what got me to where I am now. Of course, where I am now is right at the beginning of career 3 looking at a possible career 4. Whee. Higher Education can be as addictive as any recreational drug.

Anyway, the one thing that keeps my own ambition in check is that I've learned that living life to the fullest often means wasting time like you have an unlimited supply. I discovered this after I died and came back many years ago. Following that even, I tried to live the " like there's no tomorrow" cliche and wound up making myself miserable and exhausted. I don't know why, but I felt the clock ticking much more when I was in my twenties than I do now that I'm on the precipice of forty.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-01 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Yes. That 'living like there's no tomorrow' advice totally forgets that you can't run a marathon as if it were a long series of sprints. Ask the Hare.

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[info]kelsied
2007-08-01 04:07 pm UTC (link)
"I felt the clock ticking much more when I was in my twenties than I do now that I'm on the precipice of forty"

Yes. I'm in the process of teaching myself to put death in the background. In my teens, I couldn't imagine ever being older than 30. Now, although I think I'm far more aware of the possibility of unexpected nastiness than many of my peers, I'm finally managing to be able to anticipate the far future, as if I might actually be around to enjoy it...

That sounds awfully dark and grim. But it's a good thing...

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[info]apel
2007-08-02 09:45 am UTC (link)
I seem to constantly meet people in their twenties and thirties who seem to think that their life has to be in a certain state (wrt to romantic, relationship, kids, career, property ladder, finances etc) at a certain age because after that age it will be "too late" to make big changes. Their perceived deadline is usually somewhere between 30 and 40.

Me, I prefer to think about the fact that if I took up the violin at 60, by the time I'm 90, I'd have played for 30 years. It's a liberating way of thinking about it and much less unrealistic.

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[info]fjm
2007-08-01 03:29 pm UTC (link)
you still haven't made peace with the feminist community!"

Could you clarify?

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making peace with the feminist community
[info]bibliofile
2007-08-01 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Well that task is certainly on a Herculean scale, if not bigger, considering that there is no one feminist community. Which thought makes for a good laugh, followed by a seconding of [info]fjm's question . . .

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Re: making peace with the feminist community
[info]fjm
2007-08-01 04:55 pm UTC (link)
there is no one feminist community.

That was sort of my feeling. I've offended several feminist communities but I believe that there are still some willing to take me in.

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[info]yaochi
2007-08-01 03:31 pm UTC (link)
I could

But should I ?

Is it fair to take advantage ?

Hmmmmmmm

Oh Hell
Oh, You'll never learn to let go"


There, its been said...........

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Response to yaochi....
[info]ozarque
2007-08-01 03:40 pm UTC (link)
Now that is truly funny! LOL here...

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Re: Response to yaochi....
[info]writerwench
2007-08-01 07:02 pm UTC (link)
Heeheehee! Yes.... 'Oh, you'll never learn to just slow down a little and ENJOY being a Senior'....

My mother, who is 80, is now living daily with news of this friend or that who has contracted some unpleasant ailment or just suffering from the degeneration that comes with age. Last year, three of her good friends died. She's learning to live with the approach of Death. It's a whole new ball game, meeting an old friend for lunch, when the likelihood that this could be the last time you meet on this planet is increasing by the day.

It's alternately terrifying and comforting to her, leading her to seize every chance to see people and talk with them.

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[info]foms
2007-08-01 03:36 pm UTC (link)
This is more in the way of response to your previous post but I think that it still fits and is less likely to be lost in the jumble, here.

I only just turned forty-two years old and I am beginning to feel middle-aged, myself. It comes as a surprise to me, too. Far too recently, I took charge of my original birth documentation. It had been in my parents’ bank box. The act seemed to me a marker of having grown up and, now, here I am feeling older than that.

As you say, our culture worships youth and treats older people in ways that can best be described as shabby. Even when we express respect of and to our elders, it is often done in a way that reflects habit, rote, and lip-service rather than considered action. This outward respect doesn’t seem to be a sign of belief in ability but, rather, of duty imposed from without.

The same miserliness of opportunity for real respect seems to apply to those younger than we, as well. It’s as though it is just harder for people outside our own age group to gain our attention for long enough to establish communication. I notice this behaviour in myself even while abhorring it.

From the other side of it, I sometimes receive the same treatment from others. I find that when I do get through to them, it is common that they express surprise that I am capable of expressing thoughts that are relevant to them.

Ma’am, you have my respect. I am in awe of your mind and your ability and your energy.

An addendum:
It may be an artefact of communication by means of text that one does not perceive the person with whom one is communicating with as much detail. I don’t know anything much about the appearances or speaking styles of most of the people who participate in your journal. You might not have been able to get my attention with these felicitous results had we first met in person. It both disturbs and frightens me to think these thoughts about myself.

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Response to foms...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-01 06:28 pm UTC (link)
What a very fine essay that is! Thank you for posting it.

I especially appreciate the point you make in your addendum. And you're right; often, the way we perceive a person in the offline world can essentially hijack our reaction to that person. We tack a metaphor on the person without any evidence for its validity, and then the way we behave gets filtered through that metaphor. That's normal human behavior, and it takes deliberate and systematic effort to set it aside.

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-01 03:49 pm UTC (link)
I think my turning point was in the gym when I realized that self improvement was no longer the issue because it was turning into a Red Queen's Race. What I was doing was retarding decay.

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[info]pocketnaomi
2007-08-01 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'd say the doctors were proved right in a way. The life you live is far from normal. Of course that can be a *good* thing...

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[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-01 04:52 pm UTC (link)
"I'm sorry, Frau Einstein. If we don't do something, your son will never lead a normal life."

"Come on, Albert, let's go home."

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[info]voxwoman
2007-08-01 05:05 pm UTC (link)
My mother was the same way, right until the end (and working until she was unable to get out of bed anymore, about 3 weeks before she passed).

I was rarely told "I couldn't do X" (and never by my family - I was fighting the 60's stereotypes in elementary school) - I had the opposite problem - everything I tried I was very good at - so how do you choose? It's only been the past decade that I've noticed that doors seem to be closing on certain choices (I will never be a world class dancer or pianist in this lifetime, for example).

I also had occasion to watch For Your Consideration, ostensibly a comedy, but with some very pointed subtext about aging and Hollywood and awards. (It's a Christopher Guest film, along the lines of Waiting for Guffman, A Mighty Wind, and Best in Show.

I'm sure there is a term for we women who can do so much and never think whatever we do is enough - but I don't know what it is. It's not just an Ozark-grandmother thing, either. My mother's family is from the shtetls of Eastern Europe by way of the Bronx. Somehow I think this drive that's been instilled inside us comes from older generations of women who could have done all of this but weren't permitted to do any of it because of the social customs of the time.

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[info]kelsied
2007-08-01 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Really? I would have said it was derivative of a distinctly feminine work-ethic, which was shared by all of our grandmothers... that sense that while a man may retire to a well-earned rest, a woman's work is never done and never sufficient for her to claim a similar respite.

The parameters of what women may aspire to may have changed; the expectation that women will work until they drop, however, appears to be quite alive and well.

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Response to kelsied....
[info]ozarque
2007-08-01 06:31 pm UTC (link)
That's an interesting point; thanks for posting it.

My grandmother was fond of saying -- to females who were complaining of being tired -- "You can rest when you're dead."

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Re: Response to kelsied....
[info]writerwench
2007-08-01 07:06 pm UTC (link)
The 'Protestant Work Ethic' is how I've always labelled it- my mother's rigid, unbending compulsion to be working at something worthwhile or productive every minute of the waking day. Only when my father died, ten years ago, did she loosen the reins a little and allow herself half an hour of a morning to complete the newspaper crossword.

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so basically, there's just no rest
[info]lexica510
2007-08-01 08:31 pm UTC (link)
My great-grandmother used to say, "There's no rest for the wicked, and the righteous don't need it." It's always seemed like cold comfort to me, and recently I've been very aware of the hidden message in the latter part: if you're tired and feel like you need to rest, you must not be righteous. So not only is your energy low, and you're unlikely to get a chance to recharge it, you should feel bad about needing to!

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[info]segnbora
2007-08-01 05:10 pm UTC (link)
"some of your own children are still waiting for you to publish what they refer to as a Real Book"

What on earth could it take to count as a Real Book that you haven't done? (I mean, my mom had a copy of The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense for years, and it wasn't a gift either. My mom doesn't willingly read, and only looks at magazines with lots of pretty pictures, and continues to be completely bemused by her ex-husband and her daughter (me) and our piles and boxes and shelves of books, science fiction and history particularly. My mom is an audience that any author should be proud, and astounded, to reach. So you've reached both the SF geek and the pickier-than-mainstream sides of humanity.)

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Response to segnbora...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-01 06:36 pm UTC (link)
A Real Book would be something like the books of Joyce Carol Oates, or of Annie Dillard. A work of literature.

It's wonderful to know that your mother fancied my Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense; thank you for telling me. I've had librarians tell me they always order it in multiple copies because it's so frequently stolen...

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[info]undauntra
2007-08-02 12:12 am UTC (link)
Someone else who reads Diane Duane! :)

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[info]segnbora
2007-08-02 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm always bemused that her stuff isn't as widely read as I think it should be. On the other hand, it does mean this username is available on most web sites I want to sign up on. 8)

There is a livejournal mirror to her blog at http://dduane.livejournal.com/, if you're interested.

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grannying yourself
[info]elinedw
2007-08-01 05:35 pm UTC (link)
perhaps the most valuable -- at least one of the strongest -- concepts we brought away from the ozark trilogy that has become part of our family vocabulary is that of "grannying."

what you are writing about in today's message sounds like you've received, at least in part (the part that wasn't just plain bullying)some pretty powerful grannying and you're still trying to live up to it.

now: at your stage, can't you take over that role? grampa jones sang a wonderful rendition of "i'm my own grandpa." if you're now the granny -- isn't it time to neutralize some of the pressure and expectation and be the granny? just like we make soap out of fat which in turn is used to cut the fat when we wash, you get to make the rules, now, whether you want to stay in that rocking chair or keep writing!

haven't thought this through entirely, of course, but i have a hunch we all want you to be good to yourself!

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[info]fibermom
2007-08-01 05:38 pm UTC (link)
True, it will take a lot of self-discipline, but I think that you could gradually learn to loll around with chocolates and a novel. Look at all the challenges you've met in your life! This is just one more.

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Response to fibermom...
[info]ozarque
2007-08-01 06:37 pm UTC (link)
LOL....

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[info]akitrom
2007-08-01 05:45 pm UTC (link)
I have to come to the realization that it's no longer necessary for me to prove anything. But it's like any other bad habit .... hard to give up, especially after indulging in it for a lifetime.

Well, unlike many habits, this one has practical benefits.

I'm reminded of the old joke about the woman who accompanies her husband to the doctor's office. The man is clearly deranged, jerking all around and clucking once or twice a minute.

Getting no response from the man, the doctor asks his wife what's wrong. "Well, Henry's health is pretty passable, but he thinks he's a chicken."

"Oh, we can fix that now. We have anti-psychotics that work wonders."

"Oh, no, doctor, please. We need the eggs."

So, you could let yourself out to pasture. But you need the eggs.

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[info]kelsied
2007-08-01 06:09 pm UTC (link)
I agree. It's a bad habit, only if it prevents you from doing what you really want to do...

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A blogger talking about her Mother as an Elder, and how isolation changes her Mother
[info]perlandria
2007-08-01 09:53 pm UTC (link)
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/07/revenge-on-grandma-snatchers.html
Also interesting to me was her calling her Mother, your contemporary, The Silent Generation. It isn't a label I am familiar with and I'll have to go read up on it.

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Re: A blogger talking about her Mother as an Elder, and how isolation changes her Mother
[info]idiotgrrl
2007-08-02 04:19 am UTC (link)
First hung on us when we were in our youth and not making waves. For lots and lots of details, William Strauss and Neil Howe, "Generations" and "Fourth Turning."

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-01 11:13 pm UTC (link)
"Okay, so you did X, but you've never. . . ." Sounds to me like a mild form of Imposter Syndrome. The feeling that no matter what one does, it doesn't really "count" for one reason or another. With me, it's the notion that either I achieved the milestone by dumb luck or the kindness of others (e.g., that I was advanced to candidacy for the Ph.D., and maybe even finally had my dissertation accepted, because my committee either felt sorry for me or was sick of me by then), or the accomplishment doesn't mean much because, "If I could do it, anybody could, so what's the big deal." When I first heard of this thought pattern, I assumed it was mainly a feminine thing, but the materials I've read about it say it's equally common among men -- a fear that one's accomplishments aren't "real" and one will eventually be "found out" as a fraud. My husband displays a similar mind-set in his frequent remarks that he hasn't accomplished anything in his life. Aside from the two books he's written (in collaboration with me, but he did the actual plotting and writing), he retired from a career in the Navy with the rank of Captain -- something very few people achieve.

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[info]leora
2007-08-01 11:15 pm UTC (link)
I don't think I've experienced quite what you've experienced, but I am familiar with the need to accomplish things and do more. Becoming disabled at a young age forced me to start dealing with that. Overexertion makes my condition signifcantly worse and is very dangerous, so it was a crash course lesson in not doing things and in shifting the sorts of things I do.

What I remind myself, and which applies even moreso for you than for me, is that I have many many people's lives better. I have helped many people. I know that I've done this. And even if I haven't done all of the things I'd like to do or as much as I feel I should do, I've still helped many people. And you have helped such an incredibly large number of people. I'm pleased you're still doing things, because they are good things and I like good things being done. But if at any point you decided you wanted to slow down and rest, well, you'll have contributed a great deal to the world. You'll have done great things with your life. In your case, you've already done more than most, so everything new you add to that just gets you more and more into the category of amazing achievements.

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2007-08-03 12:18 am UTC (link)
As for winding down.... Doesn't it often happen on a smaller scale?

Preparing a party, fixing up the house and cooking a feast -- pretty soon there's not time to start new stuff, better choose a few important things and make sure they get finished.

Getting a manuscript pulled together and out the door -- choosing a few things worth full treatment, and tying off the other loose ends.

Etc.

I just hope your blogging is one of your chosen things!

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Wall-to-Wall Guilt
[info]carbonelle
2007-08-05 02:05 am UTC (link)
And so on and so on and so on. Just looking at me, they could all tell that I wasn't going to be able to accomplish anything. Not once did anybody ever say to me: "You can be anything you want to be!"

And if they had told you that, and you hadn't, erm... been all that and a bag of chips, what then?

The Derb once quipped that parenthood was "basically wall-to-wall guilt." I suspect person-hood can be that, too.

(Though I do say I'm sorry that you didn't have a cheering section in the form of a mother, or grandmother or sister or someone. That's a lack, and no mistake.)

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Re: Wall-to-Wall Guilt
(Anonymous)
2007-08-06 06:00 am UTC (link)
(bemusedoutsider)

It can be a problem either way. If people are always telling a child that her work is wonderful and she can do anything, she doesn't take any of it seriously, she thinks they're just being nice.

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Re: Wall-to-Wall Guilt
[info]bemusedoutsider
2007-08-06 07:20 pm UTC (link)
"She'll point her finger at me and say, 'I told you so, Bobby. I told you everything you wanted to do in life, you could. You can fall many times, but as long as you keep getting up, you'll never be a failure.' "

Or maybe they take it too seriously. The quote is what Evil Knievel's grandmother told him.

Quote source:
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/05/Features/Daredevil_Evel_Knieve.shtml

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Re: Wall-to-Wall Guilt
[info]carbonelle
2007-08-06 10:17 pm UTC (link)
Or becomes paralyzed with fear of failing to live up to All the Wonderfulness...

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