ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-03-03 09:09:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Linguistics; talking [and not talking] about scutwork...
Many thanks for all the fine comments and discussion in response to Ruth Rosen's "Why Working Women Are Stuck in the 1950's," at http://www.alternet.org/story/48370 .

This is a serious problem, and -- barring the intervention of Providence, perhaps in the form of a worldwide pandemic, perhaps in the form of worldwide weather that only the vigorous young adult can survive -- it's going to get a lot worse. Very soon now, the percentage of our population that's made up of elders (senior elders as well as junior ones) is going to be much larger, and those elders are going to go on and on, year after year, needing care. More and more families are going to have to face the dilemma of caring for the children, the pets, the sick and injured, the elders, and -- somehow -- their own personal selves, while earning a living, all at the same time. That caregiving labor has to come from somewhere.

When a culture doesn't want to have to talk about something, the culture makes it cumbersome to do so. This is an excellent example of that phenomenon.

We don't have an efficient vocabulary for talking about the caregiving crisis. We don't have appropriate words for the kind of work that is, or for the kind of worker who does that work.

We have two excellent words for people-who-do-that-work that are well understood: "employee" and "servant." But neither of those can be used for Family Member X who is doing that work. Call X an employee, and -- oops -- we'd have to pay X money, and things like Social Security payments and regulations about overtime and [vamp till ready] would immediately kick in. Call X a servant and the same inconvenient financial repercussions would apply, with an extra penalty associated with class. What would people think if they knew that you were referring to your spouse or partner, for example, as a servant? That would make you a master, right? Or a mistress, in the plantationy sense of that word? Mercy. Can't have that.

How about calling Family Member X The Caregiver a "volunteer"? Volunteers don't get paid for their work, and the financial/bureaucratic repercussions don't happen with volunteers. But there's a problem here, since the word "volunteer" brings with it the semantic feature [voluntary]. It's extremely unlikely that anyone would voluntarily take on the entire workload of caregiving for the children and the pets and the sick and the injured and the elders and the house and [vamp till ready], especially when that person is also working at real [i.e., paid] work.

There's always the word "slave"; that's a good English word, and we all know what it means. But it certainly won't do, since -- according to the cultural fairytale script that we do talk about -- the person who is doing all this unpaid labor is perfectly free not to do it and can't be forced to do it. Right?

Let's see; what else is there.... Oh, yes. There's "housewife" and "househusband." [And, by extrapolation, "housepartner," I suppose.] And there's always "homemaker." If you read the Martha-Stewart-style magazines you'll discover that those are terms anybody could be proud to have as their identifying labels.

Please consider the following sentences. Would you consider them appropriate and acceptable?

1. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished housewife Clare Jones."

2. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished househusband James Jones."

3. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished homemaker Clare Jones."

4. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished homemaker James Jones."

Hmmm.

We run into exactly the same problems when it comes to talking about the related topic of Family Member X who takes care of the endless cleaning that has to be done, over and over and over again, day after day and night after night, if the family is to avoid living in squalor. Often Family Member X The Cleaner and Family Member X The Caregiver turn out to be the very same individual.

Isn't English interesting?


(Post a new comment)


[info]cbpotts
2007-03-03 03:18 pm UTC (link)
In a very strange way, the word housewife/homemaker is facing the same situation the word 'queer' underwent. In the course of my lifetime, it has gone from being a non-issue-word to a perjorative word (She's just a housewife) and now there's a movement to reclaim and re-empower the word. Jean Zimmerman wrote compellingly about this in Made From Scratch: Rediscovering the Pleasures of the American Hearth although that book is shot through with class issues that made it, in parts, irrelevant to me. This is a topic I've been wondering about for years. In large part, this work is done by women: it is only when men do the work that titles become an issue. The word Chef is loaded this way: Many women face incredible barriers in the culinary field, despite the fact that the majority of this work has been done by women since day one.

/ranting tangent.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sculpin
2007-03-03 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Fascinating! I'm a thirty-five-year-old housewife (or homemaker), and I had no idea that there was a movement to reclaim the word. I thought it was pretty much just me putting a little punk-rock spin on the pejorative.

When I've got our vegetable garden fully in place, I'm going to start telling people I'm a subsistence farmer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]flamewarrior, 2007-03-04 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2007-03-05 06:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]londonbard, 2007-07-21 11:04 am UTC (Expand)

[info]themaskmaker
2007-03-03 03:42 pm UTC (link)
As the person in this household who is responsible for the caregiving and cleaning, I usually tell people at parties that I "run the family business."

But yes, we need a better one-word descriptor.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]haikujaguar
2007-03-03 04:32 pm UTC (link)
I like that. :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]flamewarrior
2007-03-04 08:36 pm UTC (link)
That is excellent - because what else, after all, should 'the family business' be but that?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]pgdudda
2007-03-03 03:53 pm UTC (link)
What's wrong with the term "care provider" (or, to use your shorthand, "caregiver")? For example:

1. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished home care provider Clare Jones."
2. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished caregiver James Jones."

One wrinkle I notice now: "Home Care Provider" is, in fact, an actual existing profession, with all the taxes and wages and [vamp till ready] that you pointed out in your post...

Mind you, I'm a bit odd, because my mom and dad taught me that one of the homemaker's most valuable roles was to make it possible for the "breadwinner" to go and earn money without having to worry about the house and the kids and the pets and the car(s) and [vamp till ready]. My family was also fortunate enough to be in a position where my father could afford to be the sole income-earner in our household. And the institution of "homemaker" depends on the average person being able to earn a "living wage". Which is certainly not the case today, with minimum wage set at about 1/3 of "living wage" (if you live in a Midwestern city, less elsewhere). It's certainly debatable whethere "living wage" was the norm for any extended period of history, but it is one of those "quaint notions" that would handily solve much of the elder-caregiving crisis we perceive on the boundary of our awareness*.

----------

* I was going to say "on the horizon", but that implies a visual metaphor that de-neutralizes the use of "perceive", you perceive...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Response to pgdudda...
[info]ozarque
2007-03-03 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the comment.

In my dialect, your two example sentences aren't acceptable or appropriate. But suppose they were; there's still a linguistic problem. Neither "home care provider" nor "caregiver" includes the "endless cleaning, over and over again, day after day and night after night" component that's almost always on the caregiver's duty list. Unless you're willing to stretch the word to mean "giving care to floors, walls, cupboards, toilet bowls, furniture, stoves, refrigerators, freezers [vamp till ready'].... " and believe that if you did it would still be possible to precede it with "distinguished."

Our culture is absolutely, doggedly, teeth-clenchedly determined not to talk about this situation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Response to pgdudda... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-03 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda... - [info]pgdudda, 2007-03-03 11:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda... - [info]babalon_it, 2007-03-04 02:45 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda... - [info]voxwoman, 2007-03-04 11:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pgdudda... - [info]gramina, 2007-03-05 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2007-03-03 05:01 pm UTC (link)
Maryland either has laws or has had bills introduced (I forget which -- I work for the legislature, but all the documents I've read turn into a blur about this time of year, the middle of the annual 90-day General Assembly session) that do pay some sort of stipend to relatives caring for family members or at least give some sort of tax break. I don't remember what they call these people in the proposed laws. That article you linked to is so cogent! I wish we COULD rely on the Democratic Congress to offer some concrete help. I voted for Clinton in hopes of getting an approach to universal health care, but his proposed program overreached what the country was ready for and got shot down. The appalling phenomenon I see in the comments on the "Working Women" essay is something I've noticed in the media many times, the chilling assumption that children are a sort of private hobby for which parents should expect no social support, any more than if they chose to breed show dogs or racehorses. (Bad example, maybe -- the racing industry gets plenty of government support in Maryland.) Does it never occur to these people that we "breeders" are supplying the future generations that will keep the country functioning when all of us, including the child-free, become infirm from age? Has any other culture in the history of the world regarded children as a private indulgence rather than a public trust?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 07:51 pm UTC (link)
In CA, I think it's IHS -- In Home Services. And the people in question are "IHS workers." Not sure re: Maryland variations.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Well... my sense is that within the agencies and organizations that support eldering, what you're describing is referred to as a "family caregiver."

There's a lot of awareness in those organizations of the risk of family member burnout, especially in cases where the individual being cared for (not always an elder relative) has special medical needs or limitations.

It's something of a shame that our federal government doesn't provide better support for families. In particular, the laws about qualifying for Medicaid assistance for Long Term Care coverage and the lack of support for professional In Home Health Care (though this, at least, seems to be improving, bit by bit) is, in my opinion, rather shameful. Not only do we require that the individual being helped should become impoverished before the government will step in to help, but the family incurs additional expenses on behalf of the relative, and so even the children feel the financial crunch of caring for their parents. I'm not saying some of this isn't appropriate, but do find that the extent of the humbling process that we put families through is somewhat troubling.

I'll leave my class issues at the door, except to note that the well-off can (as with every other government program) afford to hire the experts who will tell them how to make the most cost-effective choices for themselves and their families, while lower-income (and sometimes less well-educated) families often make very expensive choices, because they don't know any better, and don't realize that there are resources available to help them (or don't trust the government to actually help, as in the case of recent immigrants from areas where government corruption is commonplace).

Interestingly, help may come from the commercial health plans. There's a lot of awareness about disease management -- the idea that when people can't afford to take proper care of themselves (or don't bother to), they cost more in the long run (due to complications) than they would if they got proper care up front. We're still in the developmental stages of figuring out how, exactly, that will work best, but there's a lot of interest in things like doctors making home-visits, and providing the preventive care (even to the extent of hiring in-home help) that is necessary to keep people from getting even sicker.

A bit of a digression, but this is how I make my living, so I'm a bit of an advocate even when I'm at home.

(Reply to this)

continued, on a different topic.
[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 05:12 pm UTC (link)
As far as the Prestige Class "Homemaker" goes, I agree somewhat that there is a reclamation in progress, but I am not sure that it's not a step backwards. The reclamation I see is among women my age (who often refer to themselves as "bitches," which is another reclamation I don't entirely like), who are professional, educated, and reclaiming housework. Fine, great. Except I really DON'T see the men feeling the same need to self-justify or re-interpret housework. I see women, looking for ways to empower themselves linguistically, while still not changing the predominant underlying social structure that says "this is women's work."

As a woman whose husband DOES help significantly around the house, and as a woman who is the primary breadwinner for her family (my husband will be largely in charge of childrearing when we eventually get there) I really think that until the two genders start talking to each other about these roles, we're going to keep retreading the same ground, without making any progress. We need to acknowledge that men can be competent in the home, and we also need to acknowledge that women may or may not choose to be homemakers, and in general (not in a gender-specific way), we need to address the status of nurturing and support roles in the home.

The old adage that "behind every professionally successful man, there's a frenzied woman" isn't wrong. (Okay, I may have taken some liberties with that, yes.) I think we need to start looking at successful families rather than successful individuals. That's going to have to start with people in power correcting reporters who generalize that "You're a very successful individual" by saying things like "well, you know, I don't think of myself as an individual -- I couldn't have done this without my family's support." It happens sometimes, but it isn't nearly as common or explicit as it should be, in my opinion.

(Reply to this)


[info]ashnistrike
2007-03-03 06:08 pm UTC (link)
In my household, we refer to the cleaning/organizing role as "seneschal." In medieval times, that was the person who took care of the castle and kept the keys. (Yes, I realize the historical term is somewhat more complicated than that--we took it from a role-playing game.) No gender indicator, and it implies a degree of authority. The informal term is "house alpha," as in "because I'm the house alpha and I said so." (Though they don't entirely overlap, because multiple people share seneschal responsbilities concurrently, while "house alpha" defaults to me unless I'm feeling burnt out and need to pass it to someone else.) And importantly, for us it strongly implies the authority to delegate. We don't have any caregiving going on yet, but I would guess those responsibilities will eventually get folded into the term.

I've also seen a book by someone who describes the same position as "family manager."

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 07:07 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I LIKE these! What good ideas! I will steal them!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-03-03 09:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dteleki, 2007-03-04 09:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]haikujaguar
2007-03-03 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I would love to hear some demographics on the people who say that housework and family care is still considered a woman's duty. I haven't observed this attitude in my peers (who are in their 30s) or in the people I know in their 20s. Instead, what is common in my experience is "Whomever isn't working full-time does the bulk of the housework/family care". If both parties work full-time, then it becomes "the housework/family care is evenly split based on scheduling and preference."

And, for the lucky, "if we can afford it, the person who wants to stay home and do the family care/housework does so."

But I don't see among my fellows the assumption that cleaning/family management=woman's duty only.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 07:25 pm UTC (link)
I don't see that assumption when people talk about the activities themselves -- everyone is very careful to be PC in mixed company. But I do see the assumption in a couple other places:

1. When women gossip about the men in their lives: either "He's such a pig," or "He tries, but he's, you know, a man, and they just don't think about it the same way. They don't have the same training."

Most men in my generation (also late twenties early thirties) weren't taught how to clean as... extensively as the women I know in the same age-group. Good enough is good enough for them... but it's not good enough for their partners, so either extensive training has to be done (which is often met with resentment) or the woman takes over the fine-cleaning -- often adding to her existing workload, because after all, she's the one who "cares." Or she bitches him out and he (once again resentfully, and somewhat justifiably) does exactly what he's told.

2. When I compare the amount of time that women spend talking about housecleaning, versus the amount of time that men spend talking about it. I don't think it's entirely explicable by the embarrassment factor among men. What I hear reported is that women are spending more time cleaning, and are also spending more time working on developing tactics to fit cleaning into their schedules and/or clean better. They are still called "women's magazines" for a reason... I wish my husband invested as much time in research as I do. He's an engineer and when he sets his mind to it, he can come up with some really good improvements on things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-03 08:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-03-03 08:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-03-03 08:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-03 09:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-03-03 10:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-03 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-04 02:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-03-04 02:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 08:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-03-03 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]maevele, 2007-03-03 10:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2007-03-03 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]takumashii, 2007-03-03 11:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 12:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-03-04 04:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 05:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]almeda, 2007-03-04 12:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 05:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-03-05 07:01 am UTC (Expand)
Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]ozarque, 2007-03-03 11:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-03-04 04:13 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to starcat_jewel... - [info]undauntra, 2007-03-04 04:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-04 02:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pgdudda, 2007-03-04 04:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-04 09:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pgdudda, 2007-03-05 12:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2007-03-04 02:49 am UTC (Expand)

[info]metalfatigue0
2007-03-03 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I'm curious: are you aware of any other languages that handle these concepts differently? Which and how?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


(Anonymous)
2007-03-03 11:00 pm UTC (link)
Exactly what I was wondering -- I wouldn't call English "interesting" in this respect unless a number of other langauges differed significantly from it, and I don't know whether that is the case.

--Doug

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Response to metalfatigue0.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-03-05 03:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]kelsied
2007-03-03 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Yet a few more thoughts, re: why we don't refer to distinguished homemakers

1. Excepting Martha Stewart, the "domestic doyenne," and her various counterparts -- it changes to "domestic diva" for the younger set (for whom doyenne isn't really appropriate). I know, I know, they're all a bit in the stratosphere, and they don't really reflect real life, but they do exist, and they get attention. Of course, they set unreal standards, so that's its own problem -- Martha's house is never messy, and she never has to scrub anything.

2. Don't you think that's part of the reason the media focuses so much on the spouses of our celebrities? It's not explicit, no, but it seems like something of an indirect nod, at least.

(Reply to this)


[info]elfwreck
2007-03-03 08:11 pm UTC (link)
I also find it fascinating that we have a concept of "women's work"... dishes, laundry, shopping, sewing repairs, diaper changing and so on... but no comparable concept of "men's work."

There's the oddness that a task doesn't become "work" until someone's paying someone else to do it. Individual household chores are "work"--and we have a long history of hiring people to do them. But if a person is asked, "where do you work," and gives their own address, the assumption would be that some kind of home-office-internet thing is involved... not washing dishes & folding laundry for the family.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]almeda
2007-03-03 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Men's work involves things like woodworking and construction, methinks.

It amuses me sometimes how cooking shows aimed at men have to take the 'girl cooties' off it by having them cook outside, or with open fire, or use power tools (like a propane torch to brown your creme brulee), so it's Safely Manly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-03 08:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gramina, 2007-03-05 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 09:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2007-03-03 09:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 09:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pgdudda, 2007-03-03 11:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-03 11:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-04 12:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 05:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firebyrd, 2007-03-04 07:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-04 08:21 am UTC (Expand)
Marriage contract - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-04 09:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2007-03-04 12:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-03-04 02:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 05:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]perlandria, 2007-03-04 07:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]victoriacatlady, 2007-03-04 04:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-04 05:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-03 09:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]takumashii, 2007-03-03 09:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]londonbard
2007-03-04 03:31 am UTC (link)
"When a culture doesn't want to have to talk about something, the culture makes it cumbersome to do so."

Here in the UK the media started calling those of us who look after sick and elderly family members "Carers". There were discussions about the plight of "the Carers" and the bad treatment that society gave us; this often involved criticism of Social Services.

Then something interesting happened. Social Services appropriated the label and started to call the people whom they send out as cleaners "Carers".

(They used to call them "Home Helps". At that time the "Home Helps" did not necessarily have a good reputation and those who had gone through bad experiences with them were particularly unwilling to share a label with them.)

Now - oddly enough, a caregiving partner or relative may be called a "Mental Health Carer" but I have not heard or read of anyone being called a "Dementia Carer" or an "Autism Carer" (unless they are actually a nurse or a career professional.)

It is more difficult to discuss these issues now, of course, and I wondered at the time whether Social Services had decided to use the label for their Home-Helps as a matter of strategy.

(Reply to this)


[info]dale_in_queens
2007-03-04 05:37 am UTC (link)
To go back to "How many families do you know that have an employed wife and stay-at-home dad?"

Two. One, though, was a good while back (my mother's parents in the 1960s and 1970s--my grandmother worked as a nurse & my grandfather stayed home, took care of children & the house & cooked). I simply must mention that both of my grandathers, born in the ninteen teens, were excellent cooks, better even than my grandmothers.

The other is a young family I know in Dallas in their twenties.

Thinking about the language issue, it is quite true that we don't have the vocabulary for this. Sadly, the title in my childhood culture was simply "youngest daughter", which doesn't work well after "distinguished" at all.

But that was the way it was. I think this was ending in the mid-1960s even in rural Oklahoma. But guess who took care of my grandmother in her dementia? You guessed it, her youngest daughter. (My mother wouldn't have been able to do this physically.)

The issues, especially with physically fit elders are so complicated. My grandmother, late into her 80s, was quite about to hurt a person. And she yelled "whore" at my mother all the time (because my mother remarried). And that was about the kindest thing she said for the last 3 years of her life.

If your city has Interfaith CarePartners, you might find that organization helpful. It was founded as "respite care", to enable caregivers of people with AIDS to leave for a while. The CareTeam would bring meals, clean, cook, do whatever was needed for a few hours.

(Reply to this)


[info]pthalogreen
2007-03-04 10:23 am UTC (link)
of the four sentences, only "househusband James Jones" sounds strange to me, possible because I've never heard the word "househusband" before. But "homemaker" James Jones doesn't sound weird to me at all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]pthalogreen
2007-03-04 10:32 am UTC (link)
and I dont know anyone in Hungary who can survive on a single salary. Oh, I know of famous people who get paid lots of money and could easily pay for their parents and children and next door neighbours living if they wanted to, but of the people that I actually know, I don't know anyone who can do it. Most families consist of a male and a female, both working 8 hours a day on paper (usually with unpaid overtime on the side), and just barely breaking even. We don't really have a middle class. There's the rich and the poor and not much in between, though possibly a distinction between "poor and struggling to eat" and "poor and just getting by". I only know one family where the father works and the mother doesn't work, but she gets a little money for maternity leave for her youngest child, an eight year old. and they have to watch every penny to make sure they eat, the mother takes care of four children and does some weaving on the side. She'll probably be working again once she no longer qualifies for maternity leave, they won't survive otherwise.

So I don't know any male homemakers, but I only know one female homemaker. Oh, I do know a guy in his thirties who lives with his mother, and he does handy stuff around the house, fixing things and carpentry and the like and his mother has her retirement pay and they sort of take care of each other. But I'm not sure I'd call him a homemaker because despite being the one to put the floors in and hook up the electricity and tiling the walls and all that, his mother cleans and cooks for him still.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Response to pthalogreen... - [info]ozarque, 2007-03-05 03:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pthalogreen... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-05 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to pthalogreen... - [info]rarkrarkrark, 2007-03-07 11:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]amysuemom
2007-03-04 04:57 pm UTC (link)
It's interesting that 'caregiver', 'housewife/husband' etc. are seen as secondary or uninteresting roles by our society. For my own part I think that being a mother is the most important descriptor I have, although it is not my entire identity.

That said, my health is such that my husband, the one with the demanding full-time job that pays 95% of the bills is also the person who does most of the cooking, cleaning, car pooling etc. I take care of the finances. We both take care of the children. Even then it's complex because I work 20 hours a week and the children spend that time in afterschool programs 3 days a week. This cost about $250 a month which is about one weeks worth of work for me. At times I wonder if it's worth it finiancially.

I worked in "direct care" for many years. This was how we akwardly label the job of those who work directly with a paticular population (in my case elderly w/ dementia, adults w/ autism and adolescents w/ various issues (another awkward descriptor). It seemed at times that every year the state would rename the people we worked with: Patients,students,clients,etc. Nothing ever really worked.

(Reply to this)

Another perspective
[info]dpolicar
2007-03-04 05:39 pm UTC (link)
My household/family comprises two adult men; I work full-time and am the sole source of income for the household, my partner does the bulk of the housework.

I definitely agree that the language doesn't have a non-cumbersome way of describing him. That said, it's not clear to me what the word is for my role in the household, either.

"Provider"? That seems wrong, somehow. "Among the guests at last night's banquet was distinguished provider James Jones." No, certainly not. Sure, I can put "software architect" in that sentence easily enough, but that's not the role I play within my household.

Admittedly, as a same-sex couple my partner and I are largely marginal to the culture we're discussing here anyway.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar...
[info]ozarque
2007-03-04 05:55 pm UTC (link)
"Admittedly, as a same-sex couple my partner and I are largely marginal to the culture we're discussing here anyway."

I don't think so; I don't perceive it as marginal in any way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-03-04 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-04 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-03-04 10:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-05 06:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-03-05 06:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-05 04:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]gramina, 2007-03-05 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Another perspective.. response to dpolicar... - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-05 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Welfare Queens, et al
[info]almeda
2007-03-05 03:03 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me there are classes of 'Why We Can't Change The Rules' example-people, people who would 'take advantage' of our good natures and kind intentions.

'Welfare Queens' (who, canonically, are sleeping with the entire neighborhood, buying luxuries instead of food, and having child after child specifically to increase their income) are one.

Another is the women who, supposedly, take no contraceptive measures at all, while still having a very active sex life, and choose instead to abort repeatedly when they happen to catch.

A third is chronically-hypochondriac people who get some kind of sick thrill through making doctors/hospitals/etc provide them with endless, expensive care and diagnostic tests, and perhaps also recreational pain-meds.

The third can be proved to exist in small amounts -- it's called Munchausen syndrome (or Munchausen by proxy). I'm not sure that the statistics support the greater existence of the first two groups at all.

Despite this, political discourse tends to act as if they're 25-50% of the potential benefits-receiving population.

I wonder how we can get hard numbers on the exact prevalence of these 'spoilers', and if so can we build spoiler-protection into the laws instead of claiming we just can't even offer things, lest they be spoiled?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Welfare Queens, et al.... response to almeda...
[info]ozarque
2007-03-05 03:13 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry I can't give you a proper reference-and-citation for what I'm about to say; at the time I read the article(s), I had no reason to think I needed to make a note of them.

The point of the article(s) was that it would cost far more to weed out the very small percentage of "spoilers" like those you describe than it does to simply assume that their claims are valid and provide the services. Administrative costs of a Spoiler Spotter Corps, salaries and benefits and all the rest, would be far larger than any sums they might save by eliminating fraudulent claims.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Welfare Queens, et al.... response to almeda... - [info]almeda, 2007-03-05 03:22 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Welfare Queens, et al.... response to almeda... - [info]dpolicar, 2007-03-05 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Welfare Queens, et al.... response to almeda... - [info]kelsied, 2007-03-05 09:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Welfare Queens, et al.... response to almeda... - [info]almeda, 2007-03-05 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-03-08 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Also... "distinguished" as a descriptor, has to do with recognition of the quality of the work done. You can be a distinguished scholar or scientist based on the quality of your work (and the recognition of that quality). Likewise, you could be a middling scholar who never really published much & isn't all that well known or respected in your field. You're unlikely to be described as "distinguished" in that case.

Martha Stewart might be able to get away with calling herself a "distinguished house mavin" because there's recognition of her as such.

How does one become a housepartner of particular merit?

Less than wanting to be labelled as a "distinguished" housewife, I'd want to be able to say that I was a housewife without having the automatic response be that housewife=unemployeed, lazy, or not real work.

You'd never see someone get called a "distinguished janitor", but, you get a lot more credit for listing an occupation as "janitor" than you would as "house ___"

(Reply to this)


[info]neveth
2007-03-08 08:52 pm UTC (link)
There are far too many people I want to respond to in this thread, but it all boils down to the same general idea, so I will put it here: Why is being a homemaker/housewife/househusband such a bad thing? If it is chosen (as I have done) why am I being made to feel ashamed that I am not out "getting a career" or doing more "meaningful" work? Why am I made to feel ashamed that I enjoy cleaning, cooking, and taking care of people? Why am I made to feel like I have somehow betrayed my fellow women because I have chosen a role and a situation that makes me happy, rather than force myself through a couple of degrees and get a job that I will not enjoy? Why am I, as a homemaker, devalued as a person? Why can't I introduce myself as "Homemaker", because /I/ am not ashamed of what I am and what I have chosen, though society tries to tell me that I should be. I get the impression, from many of the posters here, that they think being a homemaker is somehow a "lesser" role. Why?

Women who are kept in the home and have no choice, that is wrong. Anyone being forced to do things for a living or their family that they do not enjoy and can find no way out, that is wrong.

(Reply to this)

(Reply from suspended user)
China earthquake peal tops 40k
(Anonymous)
2008-05-22 01:21 am UTC (link)
The passing sound from stand up week's earthquake in south-west China has risen to 40,075, officials arrange said.
Chinese aid workers are struggling to bargain seek for millions who misplaced their homes. unassimilable medical teams be dressed started arriving in the area.
Tens of thousands more are stationary missing, and hopes are fading of bargaining myriad people that time animated.
in any case, Chinese media say a bride was pulled from the rubble 195 hours - or eight days - after the disaster.
It was the deficient saving on Tuesday. Earlier, a man was pulled animated from the remains of a power insinuate after being buried for 179 hours, limited media said. Rescuers fed him sweetened be inconsistent wholly a tube.
The saving exertion has now focused on providing victuals, housing and drinking modify for the millions of people upset by the 7.9 extent earthquake in Sichuan province.
Rescuers be dressed launched a concluding exertion to search all false area.
On Monday Chinese president Wen Jiabao ordered troops to reach every solitary village and village in the earthquake sphere within 24 hours.

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…