ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-01-26 11:58:00
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Linguistics; some English verbs for presenting positions in discussions...
Next topic up, as requested by [info]babalon_it...

"One thing I would *love* to talk about, if you would, is the usage of the phrases like 'I think' vs 'I feel' vs 'I have an intuition about' vs whatever other forms of considering a topic there are. I've been trying to figure out why it bothers me when people use the phrase 'I think' and then go on to describe what is basically a gut reaction to something with no actual analysis or factual basis involved. I don't discount feeling or intuition as valid points of their own, but it bothers me that they're so often conflated with analysis (which is how I define 'I think'). I would love to have a discussion (sharing viewpoints and information) about modes of discussion and the language surrounding discussions."

This -- as will be obvious from the vagueness of my subject line -- is a difficult topic to pin down, and I have no idea what sort of discussion it will lead to. If I'm understanding [info]babalon_it correctly, his concern is with the set of English verbs commonly used to embed propositions that express a speaker's/writer's position in a discussion; his concern seems to me to be with evidentiality.

Suppose my position is that globalization is inevitable. I can then choose to embed that proposition to at least the following eight verbs:

1. I think that globalization is inevitable.
2. I feel that globalization is inevitable.
3. I believe that globalization is inevitable.
4. I know that globalization is inevitable.
5. I perceive (or I see) that globalization is inevitable.
6. I assume that globalization is inevitable.
7. I am aware that globalization is inevitable.
8. I suspect that globalization is inevitable.

[There are of course a variety of other ways to express a position in English. There are constructions like "In my opinion...." and "It seems to me that...." and "As I see it..." and "From my point of view..." and "As everyone knows..." and "Obviously..." There are constructions like "Every educated person understands that X" and "Only a child would deny that X." There are other verbs besides the ones listed. And there's more. But those eight verbs are already a huge chunk to chew on; let's stay with those for now.]

Here's what -- in my dialect -- each of the sentences in the list means with regard to my own judgment that I am justified in presenting it in a discussion. The sentences underneath the example represent my "evidential metamessage."

1. I think that globalization is inevitable.

I've given the issue of globalization some thought and am familiar with a moderate amount of information about it. I can't provide references or statistics or hard evidence, but I'm willing to offer a position based on what I do know and on my personal judgment of that information.

2. I feel that globalization is inevitable.

I don't know very much about globalization, and don't want to give the impression that I do. My position is based only on my inner feelings.

3. I believe that globalization is inevitable.

I don't know very much about globalization, and don't want to give the impression that I do. My position is based only on my inner feelings. [Essentially the same as #2, but -- stylistically speaking -- just a bit firmer than the construction with "I feel." Also more likely in a context where what I mean is that I have considered some other position(s) on the subject and have been convinced.]

4. I know that globalization is inevitable.

I have spent a substantial amount of time investigating the issue of globalization; I've spent a substantial amount of time reading and thinking about the positions that a number of experts and scholars take on the issue. I've considered the facts thoroughly and have decided what I do and do not consider to be true and relevant, and I am prepared to present evidence, as well as logical arguments, supporting my position.

5. I perceive (or I see) that globalization is inevitable.

Over time, observing the arguments for and against globalization, I have been able to come to a conclusion about it that I consider valid. I am prepared to present evidence and/or logical arguments supporting my position.

6. I assume that globalization is inevitable.

I don't know a great deal about globalization, but I'm familiar with it in a general way, and have come to a tentative conclusion. I am not prepared to present evidence supporting my position, but it's not based only on my inner feelings.

7. I am aware that globalization is inevitable.

I have spent a substantial amount of time investigating the issue of globalization; I've spent a substantial amount of time reading and thinking about the positions that a number of experts and scholars take on the issue. I've considered the facts thoroughly and have decided what I do and do not consider to be true and relevant, and I am prepared to present evidence, as well as logical arguments, supporting my position. [Essentially equivalent to #4, but -- stylistically speaking -- more likely to be used when someone else has opened the discussion and has harangued me at some length with information that I already know.]

8. I suspect that globalization is inevitable.

I'm not fully informed on the issue of globalization, but I am familiar with quite a lot of information about it, enough to make me lean in the direction of this position. I'm not prepared to present hard evidence, but I am prepared to present what I believe are logical arguments.

Over to you...


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[info]malabar
2007-01-26 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for this - I want to send it to every fool who holds forth on topics that they really don't know much about but say,"It's obvious that..."

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[info]mrissa
2007-01-26 06:14 pm UTC (link)
For me, "I perceive" or "I see" carries the connotation that the subject in question is a matter of factual observation. So if someone said, "I perceive that globalization is inevitable," I would expect that there was some set of observations they thought anyone could make to come to the same conclusion. "I see that your computer is on," for example, would be easily verified: yes, there it is, smell of electronics working, sound of fan, power button lit, screen responding to key commands. But, "I see that you're angry at Jennifer over what she said to Kayla," is a good deal more dangerous, because the person's perceptible signs of anger may be at someone else or over something else completely, or the anger itself may be misread: really the person might have a headache, or be worried about their uncle. Stating things as observable facts that are merely conjecture comes off as a cheap debate trick to me.

Similarly, if someone had said in late October, "I see that Keith Ellison can't lose in the Congressional election here in Minnesota," I would consider it a good deal less conversationally troublesome than if they'd said it earlier, when the polls were a good deal less clear.

I suspect that some of this is because I had several years of high school debate followed by training in physics, so I am both attuned to "cheap debate tricks" and trained to give privilege to certain types of repeatable observation.

("I suspect" is one I often use when I lean strongly towards a position and am not only not prepared to prove it but not sure that it can be proven: we have no alternate-Mris to stay out of debate club and major in Classics or sociology.)

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[info]takumashii
2007-01-26 06:26 pm UTC (link)
To me the interesting thing about these is the way that (4) and (7) (7 more than 4) essentially shut down the discussion by introducing a very strong presupposition that globalization is inevitable.

For example, these sound strange:

"Sally is aware that globalization is inevitable, but she is wrong."
"Sally knows that globalization is inevitable, but she is wrong." (I might use this one to mean, "Sally believes that globalization is inevitable and is absolutely not open to having her mind changed about that even though she is wrong."--but that's a slightly different sense of the word 'know.')

It sounds equally strange to say:

"Sally knows/is aware that the moon is made of green cheese."

That may be why it's very rare for me to say "I know..." in arguments! If I have spent a long time investigating the issue and my beliefs are based on very strong evidence, I'm still more likely to say "based on all my research and reading, I believe that..." unless it absolutely is a matter of empirically provable facts. Or something like the following:

"Globalization is inevitable. Therefore, we should eliminate the minimum wage and other labor regulations in order to be able to trade competitively."
"I know that globalization is inevitable, but that doesn't follow!"

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[info]redaxe
2007-01-26 06:36 pm UTC (link)
It sounds as if you could fairly easily arrange these hierarchically on spectra of certainty and informedness. (They remind me in some ways of the hierarchy of probability children learn, ranging from "probably" down through "maybe" and "I don't think so" to "probably not.") "I know" would be at the most positive end, with "I feel" or "I suspect" at the other end.

To me, "I know" is qualitatively different from all the others. It's a completely positive statement, leaving little room for argument. "I'm sure" or "I'm certain" would be equivalents to "I know."

On the other hand, I've been known to use "I think" and "I feel" moderately interchangeably in imprecise discourse. When being persuasive, or speaking with serious precision, they are distinct, as you note. But day-to-day, I have no trouble with anyone who uses either of these for the other, to avoid speaking repetitively.

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-26 06:59 pm UTC (link)
Also, sometimes one is dealing with emotions thoughtfully, which adds another wrench to the works.

For instance: "I think... you might want to be careful about how you phrase that."

At least in my case, coming from a strong intuitive background, it's likely that I don't have specific arguments arranged in my mind. What I do have is a range of experience that (in a vague, collective, generalist way) leads me to believe strongly that a particular statement would be ill advised... and I say "I think" so that my audience will also think about my advice seriously, rather than dismissing it as womanish feelings.

I have a sense that saying "I feel" always damages your credibility, unless the point of the discussion is limited to what your feelings are about a particular subject.

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-26 07:29 pm UTC (link)
I would consider that something akin to:

"In my experience, you might want to..."

And your point about "dismissing it" is very likely part of why "I think" is overused. I would consider it more accurate, and therefore stronger, to say "I feel" about something that you feel. But "I think" is so overused by people that it doesn't actually mean anything anymore. And that could make it less likely that people will take it seriously.

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-26 10:37 pm UTC (link)
'But "I think" is so overused by people that it doesn't actually mean anything anymore. And that could make it less likely that people will take it seriously.'

Except that I don't find that to be the case. It's like a suit of clothing at the office. The level of fashion you present cues people to think of you in a specific way. Saying "I think" cues people to respond in a specific way.

I think (ha! those words!) that in the ordinary course of things, people don't process those words as tightly as you think they should. That doesn't make them meaningless. They indicate "I am about to impart something that I consider important and well-founded; please pay attention."

Besides, emotions are a type of thought -- I have to process that emotional thought into words and concepts, which is a thinking process. And although it no doubt sounds flippant to say it that way, I mean it seriously. Movement from specific to general is not incorrect, merely inspecific. From my perspective, emotion is specific; thinking is general.

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-27 04:03 am UTC (link)
But when I ask them, they don't say they're well-founded. It turns out to be a knee-jerk reaction. Not even "I've got an intuition about this", or "my experience tells me" or "It turns my stomach to even consider...". So, it's not even really well-founded - they just just the term as if it means nothing and everything, and then get mad if I expect it to be somehow founded in, well, something.

If you mean it seriously, on what are you basing that? If it's strong intuition, or well-considered emotions, that's one thing. If it's off-the-cuff, no consideration of, well, anything, it bugs me that they would consider that as perfectly valid and equally meaningfull as if they had actually *considered* it in depth (whether that consideration was based on emotional analysis or rational analysis.) Does this make any sense?

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-27 07:20 am UTC (link)
Yes, I think I appreciate the distinction. :)

So, I hear you to say that you object to people who use "I think" as a substitute for "my opinion is..."? Or is that even another can of worms? "My opinion is" sounds so formal to me... "I think" seems much more appropriate to a casual, slangy sort of conversation.

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[info]fibermom
2007-01-26 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I agree with Mrissa on "know" and I am inclined to say that "suspect" implies a negative reaction to the proposition.I also think that the choice of terms is often to do with politeness or "cheap debate tricks." Just as I often find myself saying "I think it was Mark Twain who said..." or whatever when I know darn good and well that it was Mark Twain but don't want to sound like I'm showing off.

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[info]memegarden
2007-01-26 07:26 pm UTC (link)
I try to use "I feel" only to start off a description of my feelings, not any thoughts or beliefs related to them. For those ideas, I'll say "I think", "It looks to me as though", "I surmise that", "I make the interpretation that", or, if I'm talking to people who'll understand my meaning in terms of the Level 3 Communication Model, "I make up the story that". Sometimes my household members and I will say things like, "The only story I can come up with is that X, and I don't like that story. Can you help me find another one?"

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-26 07:50 pm UTC (link)
Oooh. I like that. My sweetie and I talk about "reframing" things, which sounds similar. But putting it into storytelling frame is great. I like that. Thanks for pointing this out.

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-26 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Hrmmm - I don't like the link as much though. To me, it seems like he is promoting exactly the kind of confusion about "I think" and "I feel" that I'm trying to disentangle here.

What does "I think" mean to people?

To me, it means "I've analysed this"

To me, it doesn't mean:
I've meditated about this
I've wondered about this
I've heard this
I've seen a tv program about this
I've felt good about this
I've felt bad about this
...

Which is why I'm not presenting my attempts to disentangle this as "I think", for example. Thank you for posting this so I could analyse what's bothering me in more clarity.

So - what are other opinions? What does "I think" mean to you?

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[info]carolhelga
2007-01-26 07:33 pm UTC (link)
I would likely put these verbs into a sort of hierarchy of probablility (as [Unknown LJ tag] above said). My hierarchy would run something like this (most sure to least sure):

1. know
2. perceive
3. believe
4 think
5. feel
6. assume
7. be aware of
8. suspect

Others, of course, might have differing hierarchies.

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[info]dpolicar
2007-01-26 07:45 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. Some miscellaneous thoughts here:

My reading of "I believe" is stronger than #3 here... more like your #1.

As has been said by many, these differ along a dimension of implying the proposition is open to debate. Which may simply be a side-effect of asserting one's own level of certainty... when someone says "I think X," it seems more OK to respond "Oh? I think Y" than if they say "I know X".

It seems like a whole different analysis is required for moral propositions ("I believe X is wrong") or theological ones (I don't just mean "I believe in X", which is a different construction altogether, but things like "I believe God loves everyone"). For example, "I believe killing is always wrong"/"I believe there are situations where killing is acceptable" doesn't seem like the same sort ot exchange as "I believe water freezes at 32 Farenheit"/"I believe the freezing point of water depends on atmospheric pressure" or "I believe God created all species fully formed"/"I believe at least some species evolved from other species."

My reading of "I " varies depending on whether the subject, verb, or proposition is stressed.

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[info]dpolicar
2007-01-26 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Er... LJ ate my variables. That last sentence was meant to read:
"My reading of "I verb proposition" varies depending on whether the subject, verb, or proposition is stressed."

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-26 07:46 pm UTC (link)
I like the list of different verbs you provide here.

I would add "I speculate..." or " I wonder if..."

Part of the issue I've had is that I take it literally when people say "I think ..." and then find out that no analysis had occurred, that they were presenting an off-the-cuff reaction. Some of it is, I suspect, laziness in expression. People overuse "I think". Another part is, as kelsied pointed out below, the concern over "I feel" being dismissed as invalid. That really bothers me because, to me, mislabelling "I feel" as "I think" is more likely to lead me to discount anything the person says - because, to me, it implies that they're either confused or covering up. And it bothers me because what people decide is more often based on "I feel" rather than any thought out position, and so there's no good basis for dismissing "I feel".

The context of the discussion also matters. If I'm cooking and someone says "I think you should add some salt to that" - I'd take it as their opinion and not be considering their choice of verbs. But if we're having a discussion about something, like global warming, then I would expect "I think" to mean "I've analyzed it" rather than "my knee-jerk reaction is". If someone says "I think ...", I would expect to be able to find out about some evidence or line or reasoning about that... of course, the person wouldn't necessarily be able to provide it off the cuff, but saying something like "I read several articles and the gist of the argument is ..." That's different from someone saying "I think ..." and when asked about it says "oh, it just feels right."

I'm wondering if this is a pragmatics issue. I suspect many people use "I think..." to mean "It's my opinion that..." and don't expect anyone to ask (or care) how they arrived at that opinion. Would that be a more accurate characterisation of "I think" than to expect that they actually "thought" about it?

Nota bene: I'm not a he. ;-)
Nota bene 2: I often have trouble with recognizing the pragmatics.

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Response to babalon_it...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-26 08:32 pm UTC (link)
"Nota bene: I'm not a he. ;-)"

I'm sorry. (And thank you for the smile.) I'll try to remember that in future.

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Re: Response to babalon_it...
[info]babalon_it
2007-01-26 08:44 pm UTC (link)
I won't be offended if it slips your mind (it's hard to keep track of on the internet). And personal pronouns are weird in English - other than going to the colloquial "they" for everyone or the invented "sie", it's hard to know what to use for someone you don't know their gender. Technically, I suppose one's supposed to use "he" but, well, that's another can of worms.

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[info]allanh
2007-01-26 08:03 pm UTC (link)
It wasn't until my second or third reading of "Native Tongue" that I realized you had created (perhaps inadvertently, though I prefer to think otherwise) a learn-by-example course in basic linguistic concepts.

One of the profound changes made to my speaking and thinking patterns after reading "Native Tongue" was watching the Linguists choose their words very carefully. "I think" is not the same as "I believe" is not the same as "I perceive", etcetera.

The frequently used phrase, "Perceive this:" is another example of using language very precisely. It is pointed out that when speaking to a blind person, the phrase "See here" doesn't mean anything, but "Perceive this" can apply to almost any mode of communication.

After having read the "Native Tongue" books multiple times, I no longer make flat statements. I consider whether I *know* something to be true, whether I *believe* it to be true, or whether I've *observed* it to be true ... and alter my speaking and writing patterns accordingly.

This learned behavior has made a positive difference in my life, and I thank you for taking the time and effort to write the "Native Tongue" books, as well as your other work.

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response to allanh....
[info]ozarque
2007-01-26 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Thank you; that's high praise, and I appreciate it very much.

And you're correct: the linguistics course embedded in "Native Tongue" was intentional, not inadvertent.

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[info]minniethemoocha
2007-01-26 08:40 pm UTC (link)
"Globalization, as defined as [x], is extremely likely to succeed. Here's how it's happening now, here's how it is projected to continue, and here is the point at which statistics have predicted that [goal point indicating success mark of x definition of globalization] is most likely to have taken place."

Leave out the wimpy personal modifiers and cite facts.

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[info]euryale000
2007-01-26 09:51 pm UTC (link)
My first thought regarding the I think vs. I feel issue is that it's very like what you talk about in "the gentle art of verbal self-defense" in the bit about whether people say "I see what you're saying", "I hear you", etc. The speaker's choice of term (think/feel) seems to me two more modes revealing a kinesthetic or non-physical perception of what's going on.

My second thought is about personality types (of the meyers-briggs defined variety) wherein thinking and feeling are the two types of judging function that people can have, the former being about using logic to evaluate information and arrive at conclusions and the latter being about using internal sets of values (which often aren't as easily articulated as logical systems) to evaluate information and arrive at conclusions. I suspect that the application of the terms thinking and feeling to the way people make decisions isn't arbitrary and probably connects to the way people express their judgements. So, an ISFJ could say "I feel that this is the case" and an ESTJ could say "I think this is the case" and mean the same thing because they're both saying "I've taken in this information and evaluated it in the way that I do, and this is what I have concluded" Then take into account where almost 2/3 of the popluation favors a 'thinking' method of judgement ("Gifts differing: understanding personality type" pg31) and the feelers are going to use the thinkers' vocabulary of self-expression in hopes of being understood. So "I think" coming from a feeler is likely to mean "This is the conclusion I have reached evaluating the information through my internal value systems, which, being idiosyncratic, are not as clear to the outside observer as if I had used impersonal logic to come to this conclusion, but nevertheless, this is what I conclude."

Does that make sense? I think it does.

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-26 10:57 pm UTC (link)
This is close to what I wanted to get at too. The think/feel division just doesn't feel natural to me. I mean, "of course" they mean the same thing! I don't stop feeling when I analyze, or analyzing when I feel... they're two parts of the same (thinking!) process.

Interesting trend I've noted: the (arguably redundant) form "Intellectually, I think..." in order to call out a pure analytic response, which is usually a caveat to a more emotional response that somehow expands on or contradicts the original statement. "Objectively" gets used the same way. I'll try to think of an example when I'm not at work -- right now I'm having a bit of trouble separating myself from my job-context.

(But then, in a living language, I also just get antsy when people try to pin down meaning to a specific "correct" definition -- language should be let to evolve. So I think I'm operating from a position of weakness in this dialogue... I keep having to self-censor my immediate "well that's just being pedantic!" reaction. *grins*)

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-27 04:11 am UTC (link)
But the problem is when people *don't* analyse at all! By feeling (considering their emotional reactions and following those, or whatever) OR by rational intellectualizing.

My problem is that when people use the word "i think", I expect that there's some foundation for them to think that. And, being an Aspie, having to guess whether they mean "i have a completely unfounded opinion" and "i have a wellfounded opinion based on emotional analysis" and "i have a rational argument for this" are three completely different things. So, I guess I'm trying to get at the pragmatics of what do people mean when they say "I think"?

And you are being very helpful. To me, "of course", they're very different things and mean totally different things. ;-) And I'm not trying to prescribe a "correct" way, so much as figure out what people mean by it so I can avoid my immediate response of "well you're too stupid to figure out that a well-considered opinion and a knee-jerk never thought of it before opinion have different value and shouldn't use the same term" (which I have to admit to being my immediate reaction when people use "I think" and *don't* mean *some* form of analysis.)

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-29 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Sure. But how common is it, really, that people don't analyze at all? There are things that I haven't bothered to reconsider recently... for example, no one has given me any good reason to reconsider my position on LGBT issues in years. But that doesn't mean that the positions I hold aren't well-considered -- I would say, rather the reverse, if they've held up to challenge for so long.

I guess I figure... just because I can't follow their logic, that doesn't mean it isn't there. But then, I suspect I may have a more-than-usual ability to accept non-standard explanations... as evidenced by my history of friends. *grins* I sort of assume that anyone putting forth an opinion has a more-or-less rational-to-them foundation... it's just that I also reserve the right to disagree with them vociferously. *grins*

I'm not sure I entirely understand how the whole Asperger's/pragmatics situation works -- I'm familiar with the basic concept, but I have trouble making it "gel" enough to be able to do anything but respond as I would otherwise respond to a discussion like this -- if I could think of a way to make my responses more helpful, I would.

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-29 07:33 pm UTC (link)
"But how common is it, really, that people don't analyze at all?"

Unfortunately, I've sat through classes at work with people who, even when being *led*, couldn't analyze. They jumped to conclusions, based on faulty assumptions which they couldn't recognize as assumptions, and even when the instructor pointed these things out, they still couldn't. I've had conversations since then with people who didn't appear to be able to analyze any better than my former classmates. So I'm not nearly as optimistic as you are about peoples' ability to analyze in general.

There's a difference between "I investigated it long ago and came to this conclusion" and "Oh - well, I heard someone on TV say it once." (And I also consider there a difference between a gut feeling and just blind acceptance of what someone on TV said once.) If someone bases their opinion on gut-feelings, what kind of disagreement can you really have? " No - you don't feel that way?" "Your gut feeling is wrong?" It's especially a problem when people don't make clear up front that it's a gut feeling. With friends, I can ask them "So, why do you think that?" and usually they'll explain that it's a gut feeling or start giving the reasons. Either way, I know how to proceed.(There's a reason these are friends.) With others, they're often not that clear, leaving me with no idea whether we're even using the same definition of "I think" much less any idea how to proceed, or even whether to proceed.

It still seems inaccurate to label a gut feeling as "I think" - which way too often leads me to expect someone to have reasons. (This is where the pragmatics difficulty comes in.) I've begun, after discussions like this one, to re-define "I think" to be more inclusive and to stop expecting reasons just because someone says "I think". It never occurred to me that people really do consider "I think" to be "the neutral" term. It helps to read how others interpret specific phrases. I can't guess whether others will interpret a phrase the same way I do, and oftimes don't even realize there *is* a "pragmatic" interpretation that I was missing - which is where the Aspergers difficulty shows itself.

Yes, it can be taken as "pedantic" but it's not intended that way - it's simply a certain level of inflexibility(?) that needs to be overcome by intellectual understanding of a topic, and that understanding often doesn't come without talking it out, like this discussion has. So - thanks. Everyone has been very helpful. And thank you to [info]ozarque for hosting this discussion. I really appreciate it.

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Response to bablon_it...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-29 10:14 pm UTC (link)
You're most welcome. Thank you for proposing the topic.

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[info]kelsied
2007-01-30 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Mmm. I come from a family with a strong value on education and individual thought. It biases me sometimes, which I have a tendency to forget. And I am presently surrounded by intelligent, thoughtful people...

I concede the point regarding whether it is "pedantic." What you are saying makes sense to me.

I think (being a bit pedantic myself) I would say "I think" is less the "neutral" phrase than the "general" phrase. That is, broad vs. specific. But that's my own take... I do agree with you that I think it presupposes a certain ... consideration of the topic at hand. And I do agree with you that it gets used far more broadly than that in regular practice, which is unfortunate and sometimes confusing.

Hence the common clarification "Do you really think that, or are you just assuming it?"

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(Anonymous)
2007-01-26 11:24 pm UTC (link)
We have some differences of usage (perhaps not surprisingly, since we're separated by a generation and hundreds of miles).

I don't think I'd ever say "I feel that Globalization is inevitable," because it's not a question of feelings but of (opinions about) facts. However ill-considered an unthoughtful my opinions might be, they're distinct from mere feelings (like "Globalization makes me feel nervous").

If you said "I feel that X" I might well take it to be an indication that you're not interested in a rational discussion of the subject. All you care about is how you feel; facts and analysis aren't relevant to your feelings.

"Think" seems to me to be the most neutral verb here. "I think that X" is about equivalent to "My opinion is that X."

I find a big different between "I see that X" and "I perceive that X." "I see . . ." is rather like "I know . . .", only appropriate if I'm confident it's a solid fact. I would interpret "I perceive . . ." to mean "My (possibly flawed) perdeption is that X; others may have different perceptions. Perhpas I'm mistaken ."

--Doug

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-27 04:17 am UTC (link)
"think" is NOT neutral.

If you're claiming that you "think" something, doesn't that imply you've analysed it somehow? that you've *thought* about it to some extent?

I feel is open to comparisons of emotional reactions or to discussion about "well, does x make you feel the same way?" but not really open to rational analysis. AND has the benefit of being honest about what's going on.

And I think you've just pinpointed my biggest objection to using "I think" as neutral - if someone is *not* open to objective analysis and a rational discussion of the subject, then why would they not be clear about that? Unless they don't even realize (until challenged) that they don't *think" this, they *feel* it.

If they "feel it" and aren't interested in a logical, rational discussion (but might be open to a discussion about emotional reactions to things), wouldn't it be better to know up front than to find out partway through the conversation? This is one reason this is so confusing to me.

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(Anonymous)
2007-01-27 11:12 pm UTC (link)
"If you're claiming that you "think" something, doesn't that imply you've analysed it somehow? that you've *thought* about it to some extent?"

Well, it's possible to think about globalization for, say, 10 seconds before delivering an opinion on it.

Perhaps I've been hanging out with people who do that, and that's why I take "I think" to be neutral as to how much actual thinking went into the opinion.

It would certainly be helpful if we had a clear & short way to indicate whether the opinion was a really thoughtful one, but at this stage it's not really practical to impose a minimum on how much thinking people are required to do before they can introduce their remarks with "I think."

--Doug

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[info]vvvexation
2007-01-29 08:10 pm UTC (link)
I agree with what you're saying, for the most part. Statements like "I feel that X" really bother me, for the same reasons you state, except when X is a matter of opinion rather than a fact. In other words, "I feel that globalization is inevitable" bothers me, but I myself am tempted to say something like "I feel that 'I feel,' not 'I think,' is overused." Since overuse is a matter of opinion it feels okay to me to use it, but something like whether a particular thing is going to happen doesn't seem to me to be in the domain of feeling.

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[info]babalon_it
2007-01-27 04:18 am UTC (link)
I want to say thank you to Ozarque and to the rest of you who are willing to discuss this and help me disentangle the pragmatics of "I think". It's invaluable and I really appreciate it.

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[info]wobh
2007-01-27 05:28 am UTC (link)
I had a boss who would introduce his view of the world by saying: "My thing is, globalization is inevitable ..." Naturally enough, I picked it up and I found myself saying it too. It used to annoy me to have acquired this habit, it really is a handy way of introducing anything which could be conjectural, hypothetical, personal, but also anything which could (or should) be common sense. "My thing is, I believe in Jesus and evolution."

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tomorroy those crazy auto are relevant against,
(Anonymous)
2007-01-30 12:54 am UTC (link)
MESSAGE

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