ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-01-18 13:37:00
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Death and dying; part seven; afternote...
I need to make something clear that I managed to muddle badly in my "part seven" post this morning. Here's what I wrote:


"Suppose I really were in complete control of my death and dying: I would choose an appropriate time and place, I would simply walk away to the chosen place at the chosen time, and I would sit down there and die. Without making a fuss. If I thought I could do that, it's what I would do. In contrast to a good death, which I hope for, I would call that a "best" death. I set that option aside only because I believe that it's probably impossible for the average human being to do that, and I am very much an average human being."


The last thing I intended that to mean was that I would ever consider suicide. I meant only that if I were able to simply stop living, voluntarily, by an act of will -- after I knew that the dying process had already begun -- I would do that. That's what I meant by "if I really were in complete control of my death and dying."

Suicide is ruled out by my religious beliefs; it's not an option for me. And it never crossed my mind that that paragraph could be interpreted to refer to suicide. I apologize for creating confusion.


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[info]psongster
2007-01-18 09:32 pm UTC (link)
My family believes that my great-great-aunt did what you describe here. She was almost ninety years old, and her body was declining in all sorts of ways, and we all understood that she wasn't going to be able to return to the home where she had lived alone for twenty years or so. (She was in the hospital after falling down the cellar steps.) Her favorite nephew (and executor) had terminal cancer. One evening he told her that he was doing unusually well right then -- less pain and more energy than he had had in months. She died a couple hours later. We think she just let go, because she knew that would be the best time for him.

I wouldn't call that "suicide." I think it was a chosen death, but gently, because it was time to go.

Would your religious beliefs rule out that sort of choosing to die? Or are "suicide" and "choosing to die" not quite synonyms?

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Response to psongster....
[info]ozarque
2007-01-19 03:14 pm UTC (link)
I would agree with your judgment that your relative's death was a chosen death rather than a suicide. Suicide is "killing yourself." To stop living at the end of your life is not, for me, the same thing as "killing yourself."

I wish I were able to express this more clearly; I keep trying, but I don't do it very well.

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[info]dale_in_queens
2007-01-18 10:02 pm UTC (link)
My grandmother wanted to _sort of_ commit suicide. (By the way, I didn't take you message to mean you would consider suicide, but I can, now, see how someone might.) She hoped to know when she was close enough to death that she could just walk in the woods and die of exhaustion. This was not to be, as dementia and other ills befell her. However, when whe was being evalutated for dementia my mother had to explain that this desire on the part of my grandmother wasn't paranoia or some other mental failing, but something that my grandmother had fiercely hoped for during the 50 or so years that my mother had been talking with her mother about death.

I wish my grandmother was still there to join this conversation. As a very plain-speaking nurse for more than 40 years (she worked in a nursing home from about age 65 to 75), she had a lot of strong feelings about death and the "good death". I've tried to represent some of her views here in my discussion.

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Response to dale_in_queens...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-19 03:16 pm UTC (link)
I too wish your grandmother were here to participate in the discussion; I could use her help. However, from the comments you've posted it seems to me that she's earned the right to some rest.

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Re: Response to dale_in_queens...
[info]dale_in_queens
2007-01-19 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Indeed!

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[info]kestrels_nest
2007-01-19 01:06 am UTC (link)
You know, it did not occur to me that what you were discussing might be suicide at all, perhaps because that is what I would choose myself. Sometimes it has seemed to me that spirit retains its hold on body by act of pure will; so too I have seen some who chose to permit spirit to loose its hold on the body. That is what I would choose, did I know that it was my time to go. I would choose to walk out into the woods and settle myself comfortably, then just give myself permission to take off the garment that is my current body and be gone, without any kind of drama. But then I have always been one of those rare individuals (at least in this society), who has no fear whatsoever of death nor ever has. I do not court it, nor seek it or want it for a long, long time to come, but when it comes, it comes, simply part of a life lived.

Besides, given my own beliefs (that the soul that is myself will return to wear another body), suicide would be no more than a temporary solution! :)

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Response to kestrels_nest....
[info]ozarque
2007-01-19 03:20 pm UTC (link)
"Besides, given my own beliefs (that the soul that is myself will return to wear another body), suicide would be no more than a temporary solution! :)"

Yes indeed. And it might well be "out of the frying pan and into the fire"! [Metaphorically speaking.] I don't fear death or dying, but that doesn't mean I don't fret now and then; I do worry about my next time around being in Darfur, or something equally horrendous.

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[info]basketcaselady
2007-01-19 01:53 am UTC (link)
My mother went into a sudden coma from a catastrophic brain hemorrage. She was on life support for a few days while the family discussed organ donations. When she was removed from life support, we were told she would go within 15 mins to 24 hours. Thirty-six hours later she was still with us. I held her hand and told her that her mother and father had been waiting a long time to hold her again. I told her that it was okay to go. And within an hour she passed. Logic says she would've passed at the same moment had I not said anything. But I like to think she waited until she knew it was okay. My heart says she made that choice.

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Response to basketcaselady....
[info]ozarque
2007-01-19 03:23 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes the logic of the heart is the wiser logic.

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Re: Response to basketcaselady....
[info]curtana
2007-01-19 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Something similar happened with my grandfather. He had Alzheimers for several years before his death, and although my grandmother and aunt had done their best to look after him at home, at the end it became too difficult to keep him from, say, wandering out onto the road (a busy highway runs in front of their house), and so he went into a nursing home, where he spent the last year of his life.

When I got the news he was dying, I flew home from university, along with my husband. We got to the nursing home in the early evening, and had to wait about half an hour to see him because ... I forget exactly why - the staff were giving him medication, or cleaning up, or something of that sort. My mother, my grandmother, and my aunts were there. My uncles and their spouses and children had been there earlier in the day, and so I was the last one of his immediate family to arrive. I got into the room, sat down beside him. He was, so far as I could tell, completely unconscious. My aunt, on the other side of the bed, squeezed his hand and said "Everyone's here now, it's okay." Within no more than five minutes, he died. I firmly believe he was waiting to know that 'everyone' (however he defined that in his ailing mind) was there before he let go.

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A good death
[info]amysuemom
2007-01-19 04:55 am UTC (link)
I truly echo and agree with the concept of not burdening my family , although I would prefer to be home with them. It's weird. I have young children and am hyper aware of how my death could effect them if they were present, no matter how much comfort it gave me. On the other hand, why deny them that time with me?

For most folks actively dying, I think the most important piece to providing them with the proverbial "good death" is pain management and plenty of it. Once an individual has decided to remain home or in hospice or pallative care and the interventions and attempts at cures are done, they deserve as much comfort as they choose and yes, sometimes there is a risk of dying a little sooner as a result. I find that completely acceptable, no one should die in pain (I always add "or alone" here, but I guess some people wpuld prefer privacy).

I have quite a few friends who are physicians and I have noticed a trend, even amoung the older ones, to step back and stop trying to "fix" things when it's clear all measures have been exhausted and the sick individual has had enough. If your doctor is on your side and respects the choices you've put in place than half the battle is won.

I'm a little disjointed tonight, but my final thought is that we don't need to hide death away. It's a natural part of things and it saddens me to see very sick or very elderly (and often sick) people shunted aside and hidden away. It's ok to be home, a part of your family and community at the end of life.

These discussions have been wonderful, thank you for starting them!

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Re: A good death.... response to amysuemom...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-19 03:35 pm UTC (link)

I'm with you about "pain management and plenty of it." And I agree that there is beginning -- very slowly -- to be a tendency in medical professionals to practice that ethic. It's hard for them to do, with our draconian drug laws and our fondness for lawsuits nipping always at their heels, but we can see at long last that many are trying, especially in hospice care.

Thank you for your thanks -- but credit for the discussions has to go to [info]artfulruin, who requested the topic, and to all of you LJers who have participated by posting comments and responses. I can lecture all by myself, but discussions -- which are a more difficult genre of communication -- have to be a group effort. I'm blessed with a superior group, and I'm grateful for that.

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I feel somewhat stupid for asking for this clarification
[info]voxwoman
2007-01-19 05:04 pm UTC (link)
but I don't understand the moral/ethical difference between the "act of will" that is "not eating/drinking" or the "act of will" that is "taking an overdose of morphine" to end one's life (except that legally one is permissable, since it is a refusal to take something and the medical community can be barred from forcing you to eat or be nourished, and the other is legally considered suicide). However, each is an "act of will"

is the difference purely with religious doctrine?

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Re: I feel somewhat stupid for asking for this clarification.. response to voxwoman...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-21 01:31 pm UTC (link)
I'm not deliberately ignoring your question, and there's no reason whatsoever for you to feel stupid asking it; it's the appropriate question. I haven't answered it because I can't find any words other than the ones I've already used, and it's clear that they aren't adequate. If that changes, and I'm able to find a way to state the difference more coherently, I'll reply again.

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