ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2007-01-15 08:40:00
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Death and dying; part five....
I want to let you know that I'm not deliberately putting off discussing the emotional and spiritual aspects of having a good death. My problem is that it's such a hard topic to write about when the audience has such varied worldviews; I need more time to organize my thoughts and try to put them in decent order. While I'm doing that, there are three subtopics proposed by [info]mixophrygian that we could turn to, and about which you may have things to say. I'm going to just list them here, offer my opinions briefly, and return the conversational floor to you. Here they are...

1. Assisted suicide for those that are terminally ill / Dr. Kevorkian.

I believe that those who are sound of mind, who are terminally ill, and who want to choose the moment of their death, should be allowed to make that choice. I also believe that a whole set of insoluble problems arrives when a culture makes that decision. There is the problem of people who pressure a dying person -- sometimes for the sake of the dying person, sometimes for the sake of others -- to hasten his or her death, whether those pressures are blatant or subtle. There is the problem of people who choose to hasten their own deaths not because they are ready to die but because they want to spare other people trouble or expense or grief. There is the problem of being certain that a dying person is sound of mind. There are the legal problems that face caregivers who help a dying person hasten death. And there are other problems. I have no solutions for any of those problems; they have to be thrashed out by the culture, and there are high barriers to that process when the culture is a youth-worshipping one that tries to hide away everything to do with death and dying.

2. Ways to educate young children about death, and mourning.

I don't think there's any way to do this properly in the culture I just described -- a youth-worshipping culture that tries to hide away everything to do with death and dying. The majority of deaths in the mainstream U.S. Anglo culture are deaths of elderly people, and the children are brought up to think that old women and old men are ugly and a nuisance and inherently inferior to young women and young men. Even when parents try hard to counter that ethic, it's trumpeted incessantly by the media, and the children grow up inundated by images and messages that support it. We don't say that people have died; we say they've "passed away" or "passed over" or "been called home to Glory"; when a beloved pet is euthanized, we tell the children that it was "put to sleep." How children are supposed to reconcile all of this with the way death and dying are handled on television programs like CSI, not to mention the way they're handled in videogames, I cannot even begin to imagine.

Ideally -- in my opinion -- we would treasure our elderly (and our terminally ill of any age), and they would die peacefully at home or in a loving hospice; children would participate in caring for them and in memorializing them in whatever fashion had been requested; and children would learn that death and mourning are normal parts of life. Instead, we have this very hard world to deal with, in which all of those things are made difficult or impossible for ordinary people to achieve. I can say only that we have to do the best we can with the resources that are available to us, and that there are some models in other cultures that we could learn from.

I had to tell my own three young children that their father had died suddenly; I did that straightforwardly, and I hope I did it adequately. And then, immediately, I failed them; I went away somewhere in my mind for a long time. (I've written about that period before in this journal, and won't repeat myself here.) I went through the motions -- I saw to food and clothing and medical care and education and so on, as I always had -- but I wasn't really there. I let other people take the children away on the day after their father died -- for a day at Disneyland -- because I was told that that would be best for them. I let other people persuade me that they must not be allowed to go to their father's funeral, and I went to it without them. I was young, and ignorant, and traumatized, and -- because I had grown up in this culture -- totally unprepared to handle the situation. I made some very bad decisions. Ideally, someone wise would have stepped forward to help me behave more competently, but this is the real world, and that didn't happen. I don't torment myself about this; I understand that ignorant and traumatized and unprepared young woman, and I know that I did the very best I could. I am sorry about it, nevertheless, and wish I could have done better.

3. The death penalty.

Here I really can be brief. I'm a radical pacifist; I am totally opposed to the death penalty. I find utterly irrational the idea that the way to demonstrate that killing another human being is evil is by killing another human being. I believe that we are commanded to return good for evil, and I perceive no way to fit the death penalty into that commandment.


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[info]indefatigable42
2007-01-15 03:11 pm UTC (link)
Is the way death is handled in modern popular fiction (such as CSI and video games, as you mentioned) any different from the way it's been handled in the past? There have always been forms of entertainment that glorify violent death or that showcase the gruesome aspects of it.

Or is it the change in other non-fictional attitudes towards death (devaluing of elders, modern metaphors such as 'put to sleep', the fact that nobody slaughters their own beef anymore, etc.) that makes the fictional ones more unhealthy?

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Response to indefatigable42...
[info]ozarque
2007-01-24 05:28 pm UTC (link)
What I see as different in videogames and the shows like CSI is neither glorification of violent death nor glorification of its gruesome aspects -- it's the glorification of indifference to violent death. The CSI genre makes it cool to be able to perceive someone who's died violently as casually as a plumber perceives pipes and faucets; the videogames make it cool to be able to kill more people violently than other players do.

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Re: Response to indefatigable42... - [info]victoriacatlady, 2007-01-27 05:47 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to indefatigable42... - [info]victoriacatlady, 2007-01-27 05:48 am UTC (Expand)

[info]magdalene1
2007-01-15 03:13 pm UTC (link)
I've been traveling and am late to this discussion, but on catching up I'm fascinated by the wisdom and perspective that you and your readers have been offering.

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[info]indefatigable42
2007-01-15 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Also, I agree with you on the death penalty. I was involved in a discussion recently that turned to some of the general arguments for and against capital punishment in a domestic (American) context. Is it a worse punishment to be killed, or to be locked in a cell until death happens naturally? Is it more expensive to imprison for life or to execute (given that in a country with a complex justice system, there will be a lot of legal wrangling going on for years before execution happens)?

It occurred to me that outside of all those questions, execution is not ultimately about whether it's good for the state or worse for the criminal. It's about putting on a show for the people left behind.

Saddam Hussein's death was constantly talked about as the end of a cruel era, the turning over of a new leaf, closure for the families of his victims and the people who lived through his rule. So many people actively celebrated his death. Even though I believe the world is better off with one less tyrant, it was pretty scary to think that he was only killed because people wanted the emotional and political satisfaction. His removal from power was effectively the end of that era, but his death was the symbolic end. People seem to value the symbolic more than the practical.

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(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-01-15 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]indefatigable42, 2007-01-15 04:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fibermom, 2007-01-16 03:21 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lutzethesweeper
2007-01-15 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Here here about the death penalty. I'm not so much a radical pacifist (I am a pacifist, but I fall into the Buddhist line of allowing for collective defense when genocide or similar is threatened).

I do not, however see any worth in a retributive justice system, even the slightest amount. I don't understand revenge and I don't understand who thinks allowing for it in our justice system adds any worth to our society.

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[info]tuwr
2007-01-15 03:30 pm UTC (link)
I find utterly irrational the idea that the way to demonstrate that killing another human being is evil is by killing another human being.

Let me first state that I am against the death penalty as well.
However, I have never been able to understand this particular argument. Wouldn't it also mean that you would be opposed to putting people in prison as punishment for e.g. kidnapping/false imprisonment? Fines as a punishment for stealing?

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Response to tuwr.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-01-29 02:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ann1962
2007-01-15 03:35 pm UTC (link)
2. We told our 3 year old that her baby brother Aaron died as soon as we got home from the hospital. She asked if he would be coming back and we said no. She never assumed that he would come back despite the warnings we were given by the hospital staff that she might think that. We were straight forward with her and did not use euphemisms. I think kids understand more than we know they do. We trusted in that. In some ways, that makes it a little easier because they don't have the connections and assumptions we adults do about death. Dealing with Aaron's twin brother about this has been more difficult because it is an ongoing process. With each developmental milestone, we need to revisit this with him. But again, we were counseled by the hospital to be open about it all, and that has helped immeasurably.

I am sorry that you wish it had been different for you and your children. But I think that you knowing you did the best you could, given the swaying by others in such a vulnerable time, really should be your focus. Doing the best we can, is really all we can do.

3. I am against the death penalty until I think of my children suffering, and I can then see myself being for it. This one is so difficult. When it is personal, that muddies my ethical stance.

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[info]elfwreck
2007-01-15 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I tend to be pro-death penalty for practical reasons; I can especially understand that in any culture with less technology and resources than the modern ones, it's ridiculous to insist that society must shoulder the double burden to feed, shelter, clothe etc. violent antisocial criminals *and* must manage to somehow prevent them from committing atrocities in the future.

"Repay evil with good" is a decent idea... but it should not involve blind trust nor crippling expense.

A hundred years ago, we arguably did not have the resources--the ability to take money away from "good citizens" who need it should be limited. (Prisons should not be getting food when the general public is starving, as in the depression.) Many other countries now don't have resources to put towards life-long maintanence of incorrigable criminals.

This combines with the fact that many people really would rather die than spend 50 years in prison... and they don't commit suicide because they've been told there are appeals, there's always the chance that their conviction will be overturned, the laws might change, and so on.

However...
I vote against, and argue against, every death-penalty related law I can find, along with every lifelong prison law and most public-info-about-criminals law.

I don't trust our legal system to be accurate in its judgements, much less unbiased. I don't trust it to figure out who really is incorrigable, unable to go through the changes to be able to live safely alongside others. I don't think our current legal system helps *anyone* become safer to his or her neighbors; rehabilitation is approached from such an odd direction that most efforts are entirely undermined by the system in which they take place.

(Can't strip a person of all rights & dignity, and then expect him to become a trustworthy and reliable member of the community. There's no foundation to build on.)

I don't believe that killing a person proves that killing people is wrong. I believe that society has a right and an obligation to protect itself from predators and atrocities... and that sometimes, killing the cause of those atrocities is the only practical method of defense.

But I also believe that this may no longer be necessary, and certainly all executions should STOP while we figure out better methods of ascertaining truth in trials, rather than just "whose lawyer did a better job of convincing the jury." High-penalty crimes need to move beyond the aderserial court system and into something that works to figure out what happened and how to prevent it from happening again, not trial-by-verbal-combat.

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(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2007-01-15 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2007-01-15 04:10 pm UTC (link)
We don't say that people have died; we say they've "passed away" or "passed over" or "been called home to Glory"; when a beloved pet is euthanized, we tell the children that it was "put to sleep.

While I sometimes use those euphemisms... I have told my minx what they stand for, and try not to use "put to sleep" in particular. (We have enough bedtime ritual without worrying about adding fear-of-sleeping into the mix...) However, I've also told her that I believe in reincarnation, so... I hope that comforts her.

Doesn't much comfort me, I fear. While the idea of not-existing is a bit ooky to me, what's more ooky is the thought of having to go on with my spouse lost and somewhere else and no way to find him. That's the sort of nasty that keeps me up at night.

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[info]dpolicar
2007-01-15 04:17 pm UTC (link)
(nods)

I'm reminded of watching my very young nephew when my father died. He'd pretty much understood that his grandfather had gone away and wasn't coming back, and he was sad about that, and also he was still constructing the whole model of family relations (it was puzzling to him at first that my dad and his dad's dad had both died), and when he finally pieced that together his question to my brother was "So are you going to die?"

To which my brother's response was "When you have kids of your own you get to ask me that question."

I rather like that as an answer... addressing the anxiety and reinforcing the whole notion of death being part of one's role in a family and remaining honest about the reality of it.

At the same time, I've always wondered if a child might take away the implication that his own birth was responsible for his parents' mortality.

Still, I've never been able to think of a better one.

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Re: #1
[info]skylarker
2007-01-15 04:22 pm UTC (link)
I recently came across another cultural perspective on suicide: Watching Northern Exposure the Amerind character, Ed, mentioned it as 'going where you're not invited.'

And that gets into the spiritual implications of death and dying. I'm not sure it's right to address the issue of suicide without also addressing its possible spiritual implications. I'm not sure what those implications are - on the face of it I wouldn't think there's anything wrong with letting a suffering person choose death - but if there are spiritual implications I wouldn't want to ignore them.

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Re: #1 - [info]ann1962, 2007-01-15 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]magentamn
2007-01-15 04:28 pm UTC (link)
On #1. I agree people should be allowed to choose suicide if terminally ill. I think one reason some people who are terminally ill want to commit suicide is that our "war on drugs" has encouraged such a horror of painkillers and addiction tht dying people are not allow to medicate properly. If I was dying and facing months of grinding pain, I would want to end it sooner. If I knew that pain would be treated, I probably would not, unless other quality of life issues had not been addressed. As long as I can read, listen to music, talk to my friends, and write, I will want to live. But if I cannot do anything with my life except stare at a wall while in terrible pain, of course I would want to end it sooner. And yes, there are social considerations, and I don't ever want anyone to feel they should commit suicide to spare expense or suffering of others. There is a great difference between the expense of good hospice care, and of heroic interventions at the end of life. We, as a culture, also find it hard to let people go, to give them supportive care, like painkillers and good food, but not the sort of dramatic procedures we see on TV.

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Number One
(Anonymous)
2007-01-15 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Quakers making end-of-life decisions have the option of calling a Clearness Committee to help them work through the questions. I've heard of it being done for deciding to end life as well as for stopping painful chemotherapy, etc. Ideally the committee would be made up of people with diverse views on the matter. The committee's job is to ask questions, not give advice, to help clarify one's thinking. (Sally Lloyd)

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[info]rabidsamfan
2007-01-15 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Oddly enough, the day my father died I went to an amusement park too. I wasn't a young child -- doing the math I can figure out that I was in my early twenties (although honest truth, I don't remember what year it was. I'd have to ask my mother.) We had tickets already, you see, and while I remember someone saying something about not wasting them, it was much more a matter of giving my mom the time and space she needed to be alone that day. And riding rides where you could scream was therapeutic in its own way. I've got a couple of rides I've never ridden since that day, but I never liked them that much before then anyway, and probably shouldn't have gone on after stuffing my face with cotton candy.

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(no subject) - [info]ann1962, 2007-01-15 05:20 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rabidsamfan
2007-01-15 05:16 pm UTC (link)
As for the death penalty, emotionally I'm in favor of it, but practically I'm against it. Once a government has the "right" to put one person to death, for whatever reason, it's far easier for the laws to be manipulated into abusing that right and transforming it into an excuse for slaughtering, sterilizing, or enslaving other people. I'd like to see it abolished worldwide.

What would I put in its place? Exile to Pitcairn Island or one of the other islands in the South Pacific which is ridiculously remote after a short course in "how to survive on a ridiculously remote island." Drop 'em in by helicopter and don't look back.

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[info]norilana
2007-01-15 05:29 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you absolutely on the death penalty.

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[info]mrissa
2007-01-15 05:38 pm UTC (link)
I think our culture is fooling itself about the degree to which people are already pressured to make decisions about their end-of-life care that can delay or hasten that end. One of my dear friends married a woman whose beloved grandfather decided to decline further treatment for his cancer, because he knew he had a matter of months rather than years, and he didn't want to stay alive just long enough to die a few days before their wedding. I could imagine someone making that decision as a caring thing, but what I don't understand is why he told them, because my friend and his wife have felt terrible about it ever since. On the other end, one of my relatives had very strict orders about no heroic measures: she was in her mid-90s and had been suffering a very painful illness since her mid-50s, and she was ready to go. But her daughter attempted to pressure her and, when that didn't work, her doctors into feeding tubes and breathing assistance and all of the machinery that can save lives in other circumstances. The pressure to make choices that actively hasten or slow death are already in place. It's just that people like to think of one choice or the other as "natural" or "inevitable," sometimes in contradictory ways within the same family.

My grandmother is on the young end of a family of thirteen siblings. I have known all but two of those siblings and all of their spouses, and I knew the widow and new husband of one of those who died before I was born. I know my great-aunts and -uncles on the other sides of the family, too, and some of the great-greats. When I was born, I had three great-grandmothers and a great-grandfather still alive, and I have memories of Gran and Great-Grandma Lingen and Great-Grandpa Lingen. I know my grandparents' friends pretty well. I had older friends of my own from early childhood, my piano teacher and Sunday School teachers and so on.

When I was 11 and my grandma's oldest brother-in-law died, Momma sat me down and said, "This is just the beginning. We've been fortunate so far to have so many old people who love us. That comes with a price, and that price is only now starting to come due." And she taught me how to sit with the dying, how to talk to people who weren't sure whether their time was at hand, how to pack a little bag for a day at the hospital or hospice or at a great-great-aunt's apartment if she was fortunate enough to be caring for herself in her own home at the end. What food was easy to slip down dry throats. How to moisten cracked lips without making a loved one feel painted up like a clown, and without bumping the lips so they bled. What to say at reviewals, how to write condolence letters. These things were skills I was to learn now that I was old enough, like fancy cooking and French and algebra.

And I look ahead and am glad to know it, because I'm the only child of an only child, with first-cousins-once-removed and great-aunts who never had children, who rely on me. And I look out further, and people my age followed the Baby Boomers. We are the ones who will need to know how to care for the elderly and the sick and the dying in greater absolute numbers than ever before in human history. And I suspect we are the worst-prepared for the job.

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Response to mrissa.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-01-15 05:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to mrissa.... - [info]mrissa, 2007-01-15 06:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to mrissa.... - [info]dale_in_queens, 2007-01-16 03:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kestrels_nest, 2007-01-17 11:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dichroic, 2007-01-18 08:13 am UTC (Expand)

[info]amysuemom
2007-01-15 06:24 pm UTC (link)
1. I echo the belief that for some near death, the lack of adequate pain management makes life unbearable. I also believe that assisted-death is fine when there is clear consent and understanding.

2. I have learned the hard way that keeping my children out of the loop with my own illness made them even more scared and left them to conjure up even more frightening scenarios. I can't lie to my children and promise them I will beat this, but I can promise I will try my hardest to and let them be part of the process. Once I started being more honest and matter of fact (they are 8 and 11) they stopped obsessing so much about my health.

3. As much as I understand the desire for revenge the death penalty serves no useful purpose and will not unmake or even atone for whatever evil was done.

Mrissa: What a beautiful image you presented and how lucky to have a mom teach you such compassion. I have been at a few bedsides (family and folks I had worked with when I was a social worker) at the time of death and believe that such care at the end of life is a gift to both the dying individual and their caregiver.

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(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-01-15 06:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Making life or death decisions never an easy task, - [info]maggieno, 2007-01-15 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Making life or death decisions never an easy task, - [info]victoriacatlady, 2007-01-27 06:48 am UTC (Expand)
some thoughts for ozarque
[info]wellnesslady
2007-01-15 07:46 pm UTC (link)
I would like to address your writing about attitudes concerning death and dying. As a senior who has lived a long life following a health crisis involving the realty of my own possible death almost 45 years ago, I look at death from a somewhat different prospective. Your experience as a young woman with your children is still difficult for you to recall, but I agree with other writers who emphasis that at that time you did the very best you were able to do for yourself and your children. Please forgive yourself for what you now see as errors in judgment at that former time in your life. Sharing this personal life experience can now become a learning experience for those who read your writing on this very vital topic. Our society has so very much to learn about this difficult subject. It is something that every individual and family must come to terms with, and it is so very much easier when there is open and honest communication before a death occurs. Then the family knows the expectations of their individual circle of influence, has had an opportunity to carefully think though any differences of opinion, and to arrive at their own convictions on the whole topic of death and dying. Discussions like this provide conversation starters that all of us can use to begin the process of communication within our own family units. Then, when we are confronted with a real experience of death we have knowledge to guide us through those difficult times. Reality is that we will all, at some point in our life experience, be confronted with the death of a loved friend or family member.

Now a few words about valuing elders. I have recently been involved with a group working through a book titled ‘Aging to Saging’. This book addresses the idea that our current society no longer values the life experiences of elders and those of us who are elders need to change this by modeling positive attitudes to younger generations. As elders we have much wisdom, we are Sages, and should be seeking out opportunities to mentor and share, through a variety of activities, the wisdom we have gained just from our years of living.

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A question...
[info]archangelbeth
2007-01-15 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Which I hope will not be nosy.

I had to tell my own three young children that their father had died suddenly; I did that straightforwardly, and I hope I did it adequately. And then, immediately, I failed them;

Have you told them this in the past? What did they feel?

I ask because my mom had some spates of "ohs noes I have failed as a mom" at me, and... Maybe in some areas she did. However, the areas I would point to, and the areas she would point to... are not the same areas. I don't know if this would be of any use to you, personally -- or if you've already done it! -- or not. But it might be a "think about" for just about everyone who's dealing with "how to deal with children in stressful circumstances."

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Re: A question... response to archangelbeth... - [info]ozarque, 2007-01-19 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: A question... response to archangelbeth... - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-01-22 09:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]judith_s
2007-01-16 12:21 am UTC (link)
I've always wondered about how to communicate about death with young children. If you have any books on the subject, a pointer would be most appreciated. My son has encountered two deaths, one of a pet he knew well and one of a great uncle he had never met but who was mourned by my family. He is 3. He spent quite a while after learning about death asking me and my husband if we were going to die. If we were planning to leave him, and if he was going to die soon. He also had nightmares. I have to admit that we took the easy path, and told him that most of the time people only die when they are quite old, and that he need not worry about his own death, or ours, for quite a long time. I expect we will revisit this conversation when he is a little older, and I would really love some pointers on how to address it without creating the nightmares, and while communicating clearly.

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(no subject) - [info]indefatigable42, 2007-01-16 01:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dale_in_queens, 2007-01-16 03:22 am UTC (Expand)
Reply to dale_in_queens.... - [info]ozarque, 2007-01-16 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Reply to dale_in_queens.... - [info]dale_in_queens, 2007-01-16 07:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]indefatigable42, 2007-01-16 09:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-01-16 11:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]judith_s, 2007-01-16 11:57 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]mbumby
2007-01-17 02:43 am UTC (link)
I'm enjoying (?) this series of postings. The one comment I have, finally, is on your statement:

...There is the problem of people who choose to hasten their own deaths not because they are ready to die but because they want to spare other people trouble or expense or grief...

Depending on exactly what you mean by this, I'm not convinced that it is a bad thing or a problem. If it can be done in a way that does not involve guilt, does dying a week earlier to prevent bankrupting your family constitute a bad thing? Even if one is not "ready to die", can one make the decision that it is preferable to die now than to cause whatever level of trouble or expense or grief will be caused?

(Reply to this)

re your 1st point
[info]dmsherwood53
2007-01-17 01:00 pm UTC (link)
Unsolvable
In the sense of making the bad dside just go away maybe. There's still betterand worse and my opinion is the same as yopurs

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[info]kestrels_nest
2007-01-20 05:43 pm UTC (link)
How to deal with mortality in relation to young children has actually caused a huge rift in my family. Both my cousins (younger than I) were convinced by their mother that they shouldn't encourage their children to have a close relationship with our grandfather, because they wouldn't understand and would be hurt when he died. (My aunt also thinks I'm horribly rude because I generally don't use the euphamisms; the only one I've ever heard I could stand was "left this earth".) When my own son, the youngest of the great-grandchildren, came along, my aunt tried to convince me of the same thing. My response was "If you deny death then you deny life, Aunt J." My son was 4 when his great-grandfather died, and remembers clearly both my grandfather and the fact that Mommy took care of great-grandpa, cooking for him and taking meals over, just spending time so Gramps wouldn't be lonely, and generally not treating him as if he was gone long before he died. My aunt, on the other hand, hasn't spoken to me since that conversation ten years ago, and neither have my cousins.

I have always felt badly that Aunt J's fear of old age and mortality led to my grandfather's being cut out of the family for the last 15 years of his life. (He lived to be 94.) The other great-grandchildren were certainly old enough to have had a relationship with Gramps, ranging in age from 8 to 16 at the time end of his life. They were his pallbearers when he died. But I know, because I was there and listening, that he would far rather they had given him as much attention while he yet lived.

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Response to kestrels_nest... - [info]ozarque, 2007-01-21 01:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to kestrels_nest... - [info]kestrels_nest, 2007-01-21 03:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Death
(Anonymous)
2007-09-05 11:10 am UTC (link)
It's true that many things are made difficult for people to deal with.Like death.Nowadays in my point of view the things have become more formal.
Cara Fletcher
http://www.how2dealwithdifficultpeople.com/

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