ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2006-03-08 14:56:00
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Linguistics; sensory perceptions and value judgments....
In the context of my recent attack of Blogger's Block I complained that my mind was "pudding -- vanilla pudding," and asked for questions, and [info]badger wrote:
"How about flavor or taste sensory perceptions and value judgments, as in why is vanilla used as synonymous with bland, boring, dull, and mediocre?"

I think the reason "vanilla" (and often "plain vanilla") is used that way is because in cooking the most basic version of many recipes is the vanilla one, and then to make it fancy you have to add something.

This isn't fair to vanilla, which is a wonderful spice with a terrific fragrance; women used to dab it on their wrists or their throats in the same way that they did perfume. But I think the usage should be encouraged and nurtured, all the same, because it's one of the rare exceptions to the standard English practice of evaluating everything white as pure and good and positive and everything black as murky and evil and negative. We don't say that after you're "saved" you're "black as ebony," we say you're "white as snow." The good guys wear white hats (and have white wings); the bad guys wear black hats (and have black wings).

I think it's good for our English-speaking heads to have a common lexical item which is unambiguously white, and which is considered "bland, boring, dull, and mediocre."


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Other bland & boring metaphors
[info]idiotgrrl
2006-03-08 03:04 pm UTC (link)
Another in common usage is "Wonder Bread." That, of course, is trademark infringement, but "plain white bread" - often used to mean bland and boring - also carries a connotation of "down to earth and wholesome" (which the product certainly is not.)

I referred to a departing preacher's committment to diversity as "straight out of Prairie Home Companion. You have a Methodist and a Lutheran...." (which is why he departed. We wanted a slightly wider range.)

Or from a novel I was reading recently, "eat enough jello and sandwiches with mayonnaise and you won't be able to help it - you'll turn into a Republican."

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Re: Other bland & boring metaphors
[info]starcat_jewel
2006-03-08 03:48 pm UTC (link)
There's also "whitebread", with no space, which refers to something (or someone) determinedly Anglo and carries the connotation of dull or unadventurous. It's sort of the antonym of "ethnic", which makes little sense logically -- but since the latter is used as a sort of antonym for white American culture, it does make sense linguistically.

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[info]queenmaggie
2006-03-08 03:27 pm UTC (link)
I was struck by the negative connotations to "vanilla" as well, and I've used the phrasing myself!
And your discussion here reminds me of a fantastic article I read in Scientific American about 2 years back (I can't find the exact cite) about the change in perception of how foods should be served as the renaissance started in England: During the Middle Ages food was explicitly looked on as almost a medicine (one saying was that "a good cook is half a doctor") Foods were balanced according to the theories of the humors so that one ate things that were meant to even out your temperament.
During this time, anything that was white, was looked on as being 'clean' or 'pure' ... so that people actually used sugar to brush their teeth, under the presumption that something that was white would make other things white. That is also the reason that people started powdering wigs: If it's white, it's clean (even if it smells, or there are insects in it!)
When I started reading this type of reasoning, suddenly all the recipes and medicines recommended in the copies of the cookbooks and household diaries that are left to us from the 1500s started to make more sense to me...

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[info]cyan_blue
2006-03-08 03:30 pm UTC (link)
This isn't fair to vanilla, which is a wonderful spice with a terrific fragrance; women used to dab it on their wrists or their throats in the same way that they did perfume.

Vanilla is one of my favorite body scents, along with almond.

Recipes rarely use enough of it... but I fondly remember the Vanilla Bean ice cream at Herrell's near Harvard Square, where they did use enough of it to be one heck of a flavor instead of the absence of flavor. Mmm-mm!

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[info]fadethecat
2006-03-08 03:32 pm UTC (link)
I am abruptly reminded that in In Nomine, a roleplaying game about angels and demons, one type of angel--and the only type that can't Fall to become demons--has black wings, appearing as sort of dark, humanoid shadows. But it's certainly an exception to the rule for general portrayal of angels. (I recall seeing a lovely T-shirt design that had a warrior angel on it, with black-feathered wings. Lovely! And then checked the title the company was selling the shirt under, and discovered they'd carefully this shirt "Fallen Angel".)

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[info]queenmaggie
2006-03-08 04:49 pm UTC (link)
There's also a Science Fiction/Fantasy series, "The Dark Jewels Trilogy" By Anne Bishop that uses black, night, darkness, and similar images as the positive referent in that universe.

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(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2006-03-09 01:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2006-03-09 06:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tarasrightfoot, 2006-03-09 08:06 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2006-03-09 01:38 am UTC (link)
*snicker* Yes, I was just thinking about the "Paladins in Black Leather"...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]crazysoph
2006-03-08 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I think it's good for our English-speaking heads to have a common lexical item which is unambiguously white, and which is considered "bland, boring, dull, and mediocre."

Seen from this perspective, I could live with it. I certainly remember my own upbringing, turning my nose up at all manner of awful "vanilla" in favor of the version of chocolate available. On reaching adulthood and getting my own environment in which to experiement, I finally got to work with a vanilla bean and... it was revelation. Top-of-my-head-exploding kind - wow! Deepened chocolate flavors, enriched the cream of ice cream, stabilized and supported all manner of other flavors (ever have lavender ice cream? Dee-lish!)

So, back to the lexical items department, I could see trying to then create an item playing to the artifice of the first sort of vanilla, but recalling the real stuff, emphasizing by contrast the realness of an item, its truth and how some fake-of-convenience has usurped it.

Crazy(and thanking you!)Soph

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Relaness = linguistic question
[info]idiotgrrl
2006-03-08 04:05 pm UTC (link)
I keep seeing and hearing, especially hearing, formations like "realness" instead of "reality", "humbleness" instead of "humility." I know some of this is the ever=present drive towards simplifying and regularizing our grammar, but knowing all about shades of meaning in the English language, are there subtle differences in meaning? I think there's one if the "realness" example above, but some of the others?

Pat

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Relaness = linguistic question - [info]crazysoph, 2006-03-08 04:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Relaness = linguistic question - [info]idiotgrrl, 2006-03-08 04:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Relaness = linguistic question - [info]symposiarch, 2006-03-08 06:09 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2006-03-08 04:13 pm UTC (link)
Even better yet, for your argument, is that vanilla beans (i.e. seeds) are black. :-)

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[info]amaebi
2006-03-08 04:25 pm UTC (link)
However, the seedpods as available for culinary purposes are also in the dark brown to black range....

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(no subject) - [info]symposiarch, 2006-03-08 05:24 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bat_cheva
2006-03-08 04:24 pm UTC (link)
All the vanilla I've ever put into recipies is dark brown, so it's not actually white. Could that have something to do with the somewhat negative connotation?

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[info]pocketnaomi
2006-03-08 04:26 pm UTC (link)
If one gets away from the black/white dichotomy, though, "colorful" is usually considered a positive thing, meaning full of life and character.

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Response to nrivkis....
[info]ozarque
2006-03-08 04:44 pm UTC (link)
In my dialect, "colorful," positive as it is, usually excludes black. Unfortunately.

Think what it must be like to be an African-American child, to have your native language carry a built-in "black is negative" concept, and to have that concept constantly reinforced all over your world -- and reinforced with a particular vengeance in your church. I don't think it's possible to ignore a linguistic drumbeat like that, one that surrounds you day and night, everywhere you go. I believe it does great harm.

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Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]pocketnaomi, 2006-03-08 04:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]symposiarch, 2006-03-08 05:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]starcat_jewel, 2006-03-08 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]pocketnaomi, 2006-03-08 05:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]symposiarch, 2006-03-08 06:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]pocketnaomi, 2006-03-08 06:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]starcat_jewel, 2006-03-08 05:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2006-03-08 10:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis.... - [info]starcat_jewel, 2006-03-09 03:59 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to nrivkis....tanning - (Anonymous), 2006-03-09 02:51 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]redbird
2006-03-08 04:26 pm UTC (link)
I suspect this also has to do with how many commercial products contain artificial vanilla, which is decidedly inferior to the real thing, because it's cheap. (Less-expensive brands of ice cream, for example, will have real chocolate, real strawberries, and artificial vanilla flavor.)

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[info]kajunhippie
2006-03-08 04:41 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me of a commercial I saw recently for some laundry product or another with whitening agents in it. The characters in the ad were a black girl, her mother and her grandmother. The voiceover said something about how when you can get your child's clothes that dazzling white, it makes her look just like an angel. My jaw dropped.

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white laundry
(Anonymous)
2006-03-09 03:02 pm UTC (link)
White is the color of choice for many African-American relgious services, all over the Americas, so this example is not really as awkward as it looked. As another poster mentioned, black = night = dangerous = bad is a connotation that is very old.

Along those lines, it bears worth mentioning that in many Asian societies, white is the color of death; (the same has been claimed for the Old European (pre-IndoEuropean) cultures. Bones, after all, bleach pretty white....

One of my big complaints about the black/white dichotomy that the American experience has writ in stone (it seems) is that it eliminates subtleties, any pausing here and there along the spectrum, for the colors. White and black both have good and bad (and indifferent) connotations for all human societies, but American usage seems to increasingly forget that.

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Re: white laundry - [info]kajunhippie, 2006-03-09 04:31 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]symposiarch
2006-03-08 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I think vanilla may have gotten its reputation more from ubiquity than from blandness. I'm most familiar with it in the context of alternative sexualities, where vanilla things are things that everyone does (go into any ice cream shop in the country, and they're bound to have vanilla; most places that only have a few flavors of shakes list vanilla first; the only thing approaching the level of ubiquity in flavored dairy products is chocolate [although chocolate yogurt isn't as common], and I think many people even confuse "vanilla" and "plain").

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[info]memegarden
2006-03-08 09:23 pm UTC (link)
When I was a kid, I did in fact think that "vanilla" was a synonym for "plain" that was used in the specific subject area of ice cream, and I was quite confused when I encountered vanilla yogurt.

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(no subject) - [info]symposiarch, 2006-03-08 09:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]symposiarch
2006-03-08 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Oh, another "black is bad" word: "denigrate" (literally, "to blacken").

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[info]davidlevine
2006-03-08 05:51 pm UTC (link)
I've always assumed that the term and concept "plain vanilla" came to us from ice cream, where the canonical set of flavors is chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry (note that the corporate colors of Baskin-Robbins are brown, pink, and white) and, in contexts where there is only one flavor available, it is most likely vanilla. Of the many available flavors of ice cream, vanilla is the one that is used by default in combination desserts such as banana splits and root beer floats, because its flavor is considered not to conflict with the other flavors of the dish (especially when used in the low concentrations found in commercial ice creams). So "vanilla" has come to mean standard, ordinary, generic, unconsidered, default, boring, and bland.

The fact that vanilla ice cream is traditionally white, the color of blank paper and blind eyes, adds to this impression. It doesn't have to be, of course -- flavoring elements are used in such small concentration that they don't have to affect the ice cream's color at all. I've had white pistachio and white mint ice creams, even though they are traditionally green. I don't know why vanilla ice cream's traditional color became such an unshakable rule for that flavor.

A friend of mine has a button that says "white is a color; vanilla is a spice." The idea is that we need to remember that, even if we are in the majority, we are all people of color and all kinky in our own way.

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(no subject) - [info]leora, 2006-03-10 01:09 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sculpin
2006-03-08 06:34 pm UTC (link)
I see your point, but I disagree that it's wholly a good thing. That's because I've known a couple of exasperatingly racist white people who believed that whiteness was the default basic human state, and "ethnicity" was a special add-on. So I don't believe I'll be nurturing a metaphor in which being white and being standard/basic are equated.

For extra exasperation points, one of those guys kept insisting that "ethnic" people in particular were "resources", implying that they were resources for him which he had the right to stripmine at any time. Oh, that guy. And he was very proud of this, for some reason inconceivable to me, which led to a conversation that went something like this:

Exasperator: (proudly) "See, I see people as resources."
Lummi woman: (slowly) "I am not a resource for you."
Exasperator: "But, but, but I see people as resources!"
Lummi woman: "Well, don't do that."

He seemed to believe that if he just pestered her enough, she'd let him in on some kind of spiritual secret that would allow him to take on Lummi characteristics and aid him in becoming Super Transcendent Spiritual Authority Guy. Because, in his mind, Native Americans are really just white vanilla under all those tasty ethnic trappings; nothing goes to the bone. And it's not like he had any ethnicity of his own that he'd have to think about. So how hard could it be? He could stir that Indianness right into his vanilla self, no problem. And, oh, why was she being so withholding when he just wanted to use her as a resource? (Oh, that guy.)

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(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2006-03-08 09:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Perhaps
[info]kahnman
2006-03-08 10:36 pm UTC (link)
in saying "pudding -- vanilla pudding" you were channeling the Pickles cartoon for the following day.

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Re: Perhaps.... Response to kahnman.... - [info]ozarque, 2006-03-09 02:02 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dteleki
2006-03-09 04:01 am UTC (link)
Now that I've bought an ice-cream machine, one of the better recipes that I've invented is:

Extreme Vanilla Ice Cream

The fun in that name comes from the seeming paradox of "vanilla" being "extreme". Vanilla(= plain) obviously can't be "extreme", but vanilla(= TheActualSpice) equally obviously can, and tastes really good when it is.

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(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2006-03-13 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dteleki, 2006-03-13 05:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nolly
2006-03-09 05:53 pm UTC (link)
We don't say that after you're "saved" you're "black as ebony," we say you're "white as snow."

But we also don't, usually, say you were "black as ebony" before you were saved. We say "Your sins were as scarlet". Or crimson, or simply red. Blood.

At least, that's the phrase association from my cultural and religious background.

And I've seen Hell/Satan/demons portrayed as predominantly red (fire, blood) far more often than black.

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(no subject) - [info]leora, 2006-03-10 01:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2006-03-10 04:54 am UTC (Expand)

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