ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-15 14:41:00
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Barriers to getting rich, part 3....
[info]mamadeb commented:
"This would tie into so many things - poor nutrition, lack of literacy and stimulation for the kids, poor housing (leading to asthma and other respiratory illnesses, which could affect cognition and will also lead to missing school), even lack of hope to improve, so that the parents don't think they can do anything anyway. And...yeah.
There have to be other factors involved besides sheer poverty, though."


The other factors appear to include the "genetic inheritance." That bothers me a great deal; it's one of those things that I don't want to be true.

When I was a child, the subject of "bad blood" was a common topic of conversation; I despised the concept then and I despise it now. After I grew up and had children of my own I always said, "Give me a newborn infant -- any newborn infant -- to raise, and I'll give you a 'gifted child'," and when the solid evidence for the genetic component of intelligence began to accumulate it just horrified me. It still does. It's not that I don't understand that that genetic component is only part of the story; I don't want any of it to be genetic. But that's just my own Irrational Component kicking in.

Suppose we set the nature versus nurture question aside. The thing that causes me the most concern is the evidence that no matter what the genetic intelligence inheritance may be, even if the original configuration is excellent, bad nutrition in the womb and/or the first couple of years of life can wipe that out and damage the brain permanently. That ought to mean that society would knock itself out to be sure that that kind of damage doesn't happen, because the consequences are horrendously expensive for all of us and it's in everybody's best interests to prevent it. Providing good nutrition would be so much cheaper than what we spend on the consequences of failing to provide it.

Instead, we have a large part of the population grimly opposed to the social programs that could turn the situation around and perhaps give us at long last a generation free of that preventable brain damage. I cannot figure this out; it baffles me.


(Post a new comment)

We're behind Napoleon in this
[info]idiotgrrl
2005-12-15 02:57 pm UTC (link)
France apparently has a very good program of support for mothers nd babies. I understand it dates back to Napoleon Bonaparte, who looked at the quality of his recruits (and remember the condition of the French people had actually led up to the revolution!) and decided to make sure he had a good supply of first-class soldiers. Therefore, he saw to it that the mothers of those future soldiers were well fed and cared for.

I do know why people are oppposed to these programs, though.

(1) They are convinced it's a waste of time and money.
(2) It's imposed on them from the outside. In some areas you could have a Yankee or an Easterner impose the Kingdom of Heaven on them and they'd resist. (Come to think of it, that's the entire history of the Reformation, isn't it?)
(3) It's seen as reqarding indolence and bad behavior. I've heard those arguments and read about them every day in the newspapers. "Let them get off their duffs and work the way I did."*
(4) It costs them money.
(5) It increases the competition. If the children of the underclass are now competing with your children, your children have less chance of getting the job they want.
That's already happened, BTW, and it wasn't the 10% or so of the formerly poor who flooded the labor market. It was the 50% of their own sisters and daughters.
(6) And finally --- "If you do this for the poor,what happens to the next class up?" They're among the ones complaining. "You're handing out welfare to those no-good !@$#%!s and MY CHILDREN are working three jobs? NOT FAIR!"

* as for the "let them work" argument, I read a most remarkably wrong-headed rebuttal to Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickeled and Dimed". The author pointed out that he had done the same thing she did as a young man in the 1960s and had fared much better. This, of course, obliterates the difference between a man and a woman, young and middle-aged, the 60s economy and that of the 90s. But he was utterly, totally sincere. So was Robert Heinlein when he said hitchhiking was safe in this country - it had been for him as a young man much earlier in the century.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: We're behind Napoleon in this
[info]gentlemaitresse
2005-12-15 03:40 pm UTC (link)
They are convinced it's a waste of time and money.

Not that feeding children well is a waste of time and money, but that the politicians and government programs tend to waste an awful lot of time and money.

It's imposed on them from the outside

Humans do seem to enjoy the idea of liberty for themselves. We don't appreciate it for others so much, though. Therefore, when we see a good charitable cause, we tend to want the government to handle it because they have the power to force others to "give". We also like to make laws that restrict the behavior of others when they are acting in ways we don't think is appropriate, even if it causes no harm to us.

It costs them money

This doesn't seem to address the fact that the wealthy often give huge sums of money to charities. It's not about the money, it's about money going to a government program (which in the US is unconstitutional, if the feds are handling it) where much of it will be spent in ways we don't approve.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: We're behind Napoleon in this - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-15 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: We're behind Napoleon in this - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gentlemaitresse
2005-12-15 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Instead, we have a large part of the population grimly opposed to the social programs that could turn the situation around

I don't trust the government to handle such things. They are notoriously bad at it, and so much money is stolen from the people and then wasted.

Also, breastfeeding for the first couple of years is the absolute best thing any mother can do for her baby, and yet we certainly can't make it mandatory.

The best we can do, and still preserve human liberty, is to continue to try to educate people.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]redbird
2005-12-15 04:38 pm UTC (link)
It's something that some women can't do for medical/physical reasons -- a friend of mine tried and tried, through difficulties and pain that astonished her pediatrician father -- and it just wasn't possible. And something that many women can't do for societal reasons--a lot of jobs won't support that even to the extent of giving women time to use a pump during the day and a refrigerator where they can store the pumped milk.

Frankly, if we can prevent this sort of brain damage, I don't care if some of the money is handled badly--we have public highways, despite presumably similar levels of waste, because they're worth having. Ditto the clean water that the city of New York supplies to my tap. And numerous other programs.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-15 05:31 pm UTC (link)
You don't have liberty if you are so poor and ignorant that you injure your children permanently, and they don't have liberty either because they are doomed to the same fate for their children out of ignorance.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]redbird
2005-12-15 04:40 pm UTC (link)
I suspect part of it is the same difficulty you pointed out several posts back--they don't believe, or want to believe, that what they're doing for their children now, or did for their children five or ten years ago, isn't the right thing.

Another part is that there are people who want a permanent underclass, people who cannot compete with them or get out of working crap jobs for too little money. If everyone has better opportunities, they might have to cook their own meals, or pay someone a decent wage to mow their lawns and scrub their floors.

(Reply to this)


[info]mamadeb
2005-12-15 04:53 pm UTC (link)
When I say there are other factors besides grinding poverty, I don't mean genetic factors. I mean cultural ones - the ones that encourage mothers to stop breastfeeding when she cannot afford good alternatives, or the ones seem to assume that hope or improvement is not possible, or that intellectual attainments are..."sissy" or unnecessary, whether it's because real men work with their hands or real women should be home and take care of kids.

And anti-intellectualism is epidemic in the US - it's the province of "nerds", who may be sucessful and even wealthy, but they will never be socially acceptable outside their own groups. The smart kid is always the sidekick, not the hero, if he isn't the buffoon.

There are immigrant groups who arrive in the US in grinding poverty but who manage to succeed and to send their children to college and graduate school, but those are from cultures have resisted the anti-intellectualism of US culture, where education is the way to get ahead no matter what prejudice or quotas stand in their way.

I think hopelessness (as fostered by a system of aid that, frankly, doesn't work because there isn't enough money in it because the current atmosphere is against helping people, and has been for over a quarter of a century) is as much a factor as the poverty itself. Why bother trying if it's not going mean anything?

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[info]memegarden
2005-12-17 05:43 pm UTC (link)
I'm currently reading Dr. Martin Seligman's excellent book Learned Optimism, which is specifically about this hopelessness, how it's related to depression, and how to learn other approaches that can lead to a happier and more effective life. Seligman is the guy who discovered the psychological phenomenon of learned helplessness. He is particularly good about supporting his claims with careful research, and following up on possible criticisms and ramifications.

I've also recently read Why Marriages Succeed or Fail and Emotional Intelligence. All these books are jigsawing concepts and evidence into place for me about how people frame the world, how their attitudes affect their interactions with each other and the world, and how mind and matter interact.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]bat_cheva
2005-12-15 04:57 pm UTC (link)
I agree with those who say there is an element that doesn't want everyone to have the same basic footing. If all the poor kids are suddenly as mentally agile as well off kids then suddenly there is a problem. Intelligent poor people who are working to better themselves won't be doing the jobs that everyone looks down their noses at, they'll be in school learning high paying things then flooding the job market and making sure NO jobs are high paying.

Because, of course, there is no such thing as only good paying, decent jobs. Certain things must be done. Garbage must be collected, sewage must be treated. Cooks and cleaners and wait staff and construction workers and general clerks are needed, as well as other professions I probably don't even know exist. Not everyone can be their own boss because then nobody would have any employees to work for them.

And if everyone had the skills and knowledge geared to high paying jobs, then the jobs would not be high paying anymore. The command a high salary because not very many people can do them. If fifty out of a hundred people can do the same thing as opposed to say five out of a hundred before (hypothetical numbers) then the employer doesn't need to pay very much to get someone to do the job. It's outsourcing come home to roost.

It's sad but true that if everyone has the skills we think of as guaranteeing a good living, then the skills just aren't worth much at all anymore. And everyone will think they're too good to do the jobs previously scorned, immigrants will be needed to do them, then we have another poorly nutritioned underclass to deal with.

And since we're talking genetic components here, it's it natural in the human race, as it is in other apes, to have natural hierarchies, an upper class and a lower class. Pack status, since humans are as much pack animals as the other apes. People are responding to old old programming in these cases. I don't think that part of it can ever be gotten rid of.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-15 05:33 pm UTC (link)
I don't know that the latter is true. Apes form troops, and a troop is not a pack, and its members are a lot more autonomous than the ones in a pack. They still have interdependence, yes, but for instance, the "lower" members still have babies. And the nature of the troop varies from species to species. Ordinary chimpanzees, for instance, are a lot more rigid in their social roles. Bonobo chimpanzees are a lot more affectionate towards one another and there's a lot more fluidity in relationships. Oh, and the troops are mostly comprised of females and they're the ones who decide how society goes. :o)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-15 05:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-15 07:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-15 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-16 12:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2005-12-16 10:06 am UTC (Expand)
Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago
[info]idiotgrrl
2005-12-15 05:52 pm UTC (link)
I remember a story in the old Astounding, way back in the late 40s, where the usual representatives of Our Civilization came upon a world settled by super-intelligent people who kept up their traditions of education etc. One of the first things they asked was, "who does the crud jobs?" The answer was "Students earning their education."

In "Rainbow Cadenza", the bad guy points out to the heroine that in the olden days, she would have been expected to do many of the crud jobs (if not for the social changes he endorsed, many of them horrible), and she answered "Are you taking credit for the robotics revolution, too?" i.e. why hire someone to scrub floors when a Roomba is cheaper and cuter?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-15 06:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]leora, 2005-12-16 12:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]idiotgrrl, 2005-12-16 01:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]leora, 2005-12-16 01:21 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - (Anonymous), 2005-12-16 01:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]leora, 2005-12-16 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-16 05:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Poul Anderson addressed this 55 years ago - [info]beckyzoole, 2005-12-16 10:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sighkey
2005-12-15 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Because 'intelligence' as used in most research, is defined as an IQ score in an intelligence test, it is more correct to say that there is evidence that there is a genetic component to a person's ability to do IQ tests. Different parts of IQ tests test different types of reasoning abilities, and the neurological base of many of these abilities can be localised to specific parts of the brain. Should there be damage to these parts of the brain, be it genetic, environmental, or as the result of an accident, there will be deficits in a person's performance that will show up as a lower score in an IQ test. It's brain damage, regardless of cause, that is the problem.

The biggest concern I have (and I assume many others) is that some people still want to believe that the slight genetic differences among different races or between genders reflect differences in intelligence. There is no reliable evidence to support that claim.
There has recently been a number of studies that appear to add support to the claim that men on average, are better at spatial reasoning than are women. Be that as it may, being better at spatial reasoning does not equate to being more intelligent. On average they might get a better score in the spatial reasoning part of an IQ test but as women may do better in linguistic reasoning parts of the test, it all evens out.
And no matter what, differences among individuals are always much bigger than differences between genders or among races.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-15 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Yep. Also, I rather like the idea that there are many different kinds of intelligence. I believe one researcher counted seven distinct kinds, didn't he?

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(no subject) - [info]sighkey, 2005-12-15 11:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]memegarden, 2005-12-17 05:52 pm UTC (Expand)
whose best interest?
[info]tkil
2005-12-15 06:21 pm UTC (link)
it's in everybody's best interests to prevent [bad nutrition destroying innate intelligence]

In the long term, you might be correct -- but in the short term, the people currently in power do not want most people to be smart, critical, original thinkers: they want worker zombies, mindless consumers, and easily lead "citizens".

Maybe I'm just cynical, but it's so easy to read actions by those in power as "starving the beast" to keep it easily tamed, or even to kill off structures they find unpleasant. E.g., "No Child Left Behind" guarantees by definition that 50% of schools will fail. Public education is already on its knees, this will finish killing them off, and private schools for those that can afford them, church schools (oops, sorry, "faith-based initiatives") and all their dogma and brainwashing for the rest.

The business version of this is Wall Street's emphasis on this quarter's numbers. No large company ever got there (nor stayed there) by living instant-to-instant: they knew they had to invest in their future, and R&D was an accepted expense. Once stocks started driving management, however, it was an expense that had to be removed, because it wasn't showing return right now.

I see the situation as a tragedy of short-term thinking and (possibly subconscious) power grabbing. However, to remove the current power holders you need another organization with at least as much power -- and I've never heard of an organization that large that didn't get corrupt at the higher levels.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: whose best interest?
[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-15 07:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure I agree with that last part. It's sort of a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" solution, isn't it? All that needs to happen is that the people have had enough. Look at what happened in Argentina when their currency went into freefall. They ALL got mad and revolted. It was rather spectacular.

Hopefully it won't take something that bad to make us act, and we don't need a huge revolution, either. We just need enough individuals deciding they want the situation to change, and working together to set that change in motion.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: whose best interest? - [info]tkil, 2005-12-15 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-15 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 09:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]idiotgrrl, 2005-12-15 09:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 10:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-15 10:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-15 10:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest?
[info]memegarden
2005-12-17 05:58 pm UTC (link)
"No Child Left Behind" guarantees by definition that 50% of schools will fail.

While I do hold that "No Child Left Behind" is a cynical, misleading, and destructive approach, I don't know where you've gotten this claim. The "Adequate Yearly Progress" requirement is not, as I understand, graded on a curve with all below-average schools failing "by definition". The law has major flaws (like totally failing to be funded), but as far as I know this is not one of them. Please feel free to enlighten me with quotations or citations if I have missed something that makes your statement accurate.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: whose best interest? - [info]tkil, 2005-12-17 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]tkil, 2005-12-17 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: whose best interest? - [info]memegarden, 2005-12-18 01:37 am UTC (Expand)

[info]starcat_jewel
2005-12-15 07:07 pm UTC (link)
Well, everything I was going to say has already been said better by someone else. So I'll just say that I wholeheartedly endorse the comments of [info]idiotgrrl, [info]mamadeb, and [info]bat_cheva. Between them, they seem to have covered the topic most thoroughly.

(Reply to this)


[info]bimmer1200
2005-12-15 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Instead, we have a large part of the population grimly opposed to the social programs that could turn the situation around and perhaps give us at long last a generation free of that preventable brain damage. I cannot figure this out; it baffles me.

This is an insulting misrepresentation of the position of those opposed to government programs. What baffles me is that someone who is so adept at communication could state so bald-facedly that because I disagree about government involvement in this, that I want to cause brain damage to children, or at best am indifferent to it. I'd be surprised if this weren't so common among progressives. See the rest of this thread for examples. It's a rhetorical below-the-belt blow, but unfortunately it's nothing new.

Worse, such a program, does, in fact, exist. WIC along with many state programs designed to supplement it. In fact, nearly Five (5) Billion dollars a year is spent by the federal government alone on this. It's been around for 31 years and still hasn't solved the problem. With participation going from 88,000 when it started to 7.5 million today, it is hard to argue that we aren't spending enough or reaching enough people.

I'm opposed to such government programs, because it isn't just one program. It's an ever increasing plethora of them, with an ever increasing demands for funding. Funding that comes from taking money from me and my loved ones, decreasing out quality of life, to provide for strangers who may or may not be deserving.

Programs like these decrease liberty, not just from the productive class who are being extorted to pay for them, but from those who 'benefit' as well by making them dependent on the government.

I'm most baffled that someone who so clearly loves and cares about people both as individuals and as a group, and who so clearly detests violence would support programs that have to occur through extortion.

I imagine this will get me flamed right off this journal, but I'm tired of hearing that because I have this odd idea that I'm entitled to use the money I make to improve my life and that of those I love, that I therefore want to starve children, poison the air and water, and keep the underclass malnourished and brain damaged so I can have a cheap gardner. That because I think the government has no business being involved in social problems, that it actually excaberates those problems instead of solving them, and that private charitable solutions would do a better job if the economy weren't hobbled by taxation and over-regulation, that I'm therefore a 2-dimensional, mustachio-twirling villain who thinks 'A Modest Proposal' is a model of how to deal with social problems.

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[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-15 07:41 pm UTC (link)
You've pretty much been insulting yourself here. There's no such thing as a person who "deserves" to starve and/or be brain damaged from bad nutrition.

You can't possibly have liberty if you are poor and brain-damaged.

You are using the money you make to improve your life and that of those you love. The tax rates in the United States are among the lowest in the First World. Furthermore, the rich have all kinds of tax breaks they can take to get out of paying their share. Don't believe me? Ask a CPA. Hell, find a Republican one. They'll be even happier to tell you.

Private charitable solutions had their heyday. They failed miserably. They will again, given free rein to do so.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]bimmer1200, 2005-12-15 07:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinker, 2005-12-15 10:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-15 11:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-16 12:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]memegarden, 2005-12-17 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
And the biggest question is ...
[info]idiotgrrl
2005-12-15 08:00 pm UTC (link)
Does it work? That's all I care about.

The City of Albuquerque had a proposal for a city-wide minimum wage on the table. One side said "People are working for not enough to keep them alive. We have to fix this."

The other side said "This will hurt the working poor because ---

People will hire fewer workers.
They will hire a lot fewer entry level workers.
Most of those low-paid workers are kids and retirees. (false: many of them are single mothers.)
People will take their enterprises to the rest of the metro area.

The pro-minimum side cried "You're just a tool of the big businesses who want to pay their workers as little as they can get away with!" And cited cases in point, unfortunately.

I got both sides mad at me by asking "Will the minimum wage do what you people said it would? Why not try it out and see?"

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: And the biggest question is ... - [info]trinker, 2005-12-15 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: And the biggest question is ... - [info]tkil, 2005-12-15 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: And the biggest question is ... - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-16 09:01 am UTC (Expand)
Re: And the biggest question is ... - [info]memegarden, 2005-12-17 06:11 pm UTC (Expand)
using your money
[info]tkil
2005-12-15 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Let's see. You're whining about the 5G$ spent on WIC. What about the 500G$ spent (so far!) on just the latest Iraq war?

But further. How do you get to work? By driving on streets and highways, most likely. Gee, how do those get paid, if not by "extorted taxes". Would you prefer to have to stop at every property line to have a nice libertarian haggle with the landowner about how much you should have to pay to cross that property?

Oh, but then they'll band together to make life easier for the people who travel. Welcome to guilds, aristocracy, and (gasp! horrors!) GOVERNMENT.

And just what food do you buy with your hard earned cash? Any old stuff at the supermarket? That's been checked out by the USDA and the FDA? And has laws in place saying that people have to disclose ingredients and not mark goods in a misleading manner?

When you go out to enjoy nature, say a weekend camping trip... what keeps the sky even as blue as it is? Odds are you're on *gasp!* gov't land when you're camping too.

Sure, you can spend more money locally on you and yours, and that will improve your life ... locally. Is it truly improved when you can't travel abroad because a gov't full of people who think like you are pissing off the rest of the planet? Are your children any safer for driving in that big SUV, when they'll likely have to be drafted to fight the next big corporate war?

(And for what it's worth, I'm not someone on welfare. I make 100k$/yr, and while I grouse about some of those taxes, I know I take advantage of many of the opportunities the government does provide. And the rich pay more, and the rich use more, and get more advantage out of the infrastructure built by those funds. Think of wal-mart without interstate highways.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: using your money - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 09:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]tkil, 2005-12-15 10:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 11:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]tkil, 2005-12-15 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]urox, 2005-12-16 03:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]urox, 2005-12-16 04:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: using your money - [info]trinker, 2005-12-15 10:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to bimmer1200 - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-15 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to bimmer1200 - [info]urox, 2005-12-15 09:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to bimmer1200... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-15 09:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2005-12-15 08:46 pm UTC (link)
www.iahp.org, IIRC... It's how I read, it's how my kid reads, and WOW does she read. I suspect that barring gross brain damage or sensory impairment, you still could have any newborn become a "gifted" child. The only question would be how gifted -- perhaps only highly literate and with early competency in math, instead of able to play violin, piano, do gymnastics, five languages fluently, etc.

'Cause if I was reading at age 2 (which my mother says I was; second grade level, she claims), why can't I read music? Well, no one taught me music back then. Or second languages (beyond counting to 20 in spanish). Or much in the way of math. I have a powerful tool to inform myself, in my literacy, but I don't think it's that I'm "smart" in a certain way. It's just that I was given tools when my brain was most pliable and able to absorb stuff.

If everyone had such tools, then genetic intelligence would be more of a factor -- but till nurture catches up, nature is not the limit some might assume.

...good lords, I think this hit one of my core, nigh-religious, beliefs...

(Reply to this)


[info]carbonelle
2005-12-16 05:33 am UTC (link)
Bold words are, of course, mine:

"Instead, we have a large part of the population grimly opposed to the social programs that claim that they're going to turn the situation around and perhaps give us at long last a generation free of that preventable brain damage. but in fact do nothing of the sort, and create a parasitical beaurocracy of mediocre-middle-class elites who squander money that could be spent usefully: e.g. by the people who earned it.

That explains the "grim determination", at any rate.

On the other hand, I've attended some interesting programs on brain development of toddlers and teens. As I've long suspected, very similar things are going on at the neurological level. In toddlers, however, masses and masses of brain connections are forming: Visible lumps of neurological stuff. After a period of peak activity starting 'round about the Terrible Twos it begins to wind down.

In families where language use is rich and common, most of those connections remain. In poorer families - and I do not refer entirely to income on this (*) - most of those connections atrophy and are lost forever.

And second the iahp.org site, though I'm having rather less success with it, I suspect matters would be far worse without.

(*Third-world mother with poor access to nutrition but educated parents and therefore extremely rich language environment: German, Portugese, English)

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(no subject) - [info]carbonelle, 2005-12-16 05:34 am UTC (Expand)
Response to carbonelle.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-16 01:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to carbonelle.... - [info]carbonelle, 2005-12-17 03:44 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nancylebov
2005-12-16 10:26 am UTC (link)
Why isn't decent nutrition for pregnant women and young children an expecially high priority for private charities? It's got the same leverage if they do it as if a government does it.

At least for Americans, the problem may be that it isn't a dramatic process--I suspect that Americans are apt to prefer dealing with emergencies to doing maintenance.

As for the rest of the world, I don't know why it isn't a higher priority--there are governments which make sure it happens for their own citizens, but it doesn't seem to be top priority for outreach.

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(no subject) - [info]carbonelle, 2005-12-17 03:46 am UTC (Expand)

[info]supergee
2005-12-31 03:49 pm UTC (link)
As has been remarked here, many people oppose programs that would prevent intelligence loss by malnutrition because they fear a level playing field. Because I recognize the importance of the genetic component of intelligence, I can eagerly support all such programs, knowing that there will still be a lot of people stupider than me.

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