ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-07 15:32:00
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Personal note ... problems, and Blanket Responses
I have a set of interacting problems this morning, and it may take me a little while to straighten them out:

1. This discussion has -- to my great pleasure -- grown so large that I'm having a hard time responding to the comments. (Not to mention the fact that, as many of us have pointed out, getting the responses to appear with the comments they belong to is almost impossible at this stage.) I'm going to do two Blanket Responses at the end of this post, just for clarity's sake. Thank you for all those comments; I appreciate them.

2. My e-mail has chosen this moment to go berserk. Not only am I now getting e-mails that I deleted or stashed in mid-November, I'm also getting two -- sometimes three -- copies of individual e-mails. I don't know whether the problem is in my Macintosh or at my server or is a Vast Twisted-Wing Conspiracy taking aim at me for my hubris or something else entirely. I'm working on it, but it's slowing me down.

3. My agent has just called me with yet another emergency that has to be taken care of yesterday....


Now to the Blanket Responses....

4. I really do believe that at least for the poverty population I've been posting about the key to the problem is the food and drink. Because the result of doing that wrong is brain damage, and brain damage doesn't go away. The wrong food and drink, for pregnant women and babies, means a kind of dumbing-down that can't be fixed, no matter how much money and good will you throw at the problem. Until that's fixed, I don't see any way out of the dilemma. [And I should note that although I've focused on one geographical area, all the parts of the world where pregnant women and infants suffer malnutrition are caught in the same trap. Whether it's famine or a deeply-entrenched cultural construct, the result is damaged brains. Often a whole generation of damaged brains.]

4. Some of you have said "Yes, you can write a book that is the nutritional equivalent of The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense." I thank you for your vote of confidence -- but I have to disagree. When I wrote the GAVSD in 1979, it was in response to what I saw as an overwhelmingly urgent need, and I must have been right. (I base that judgment on the fact that librarians tell me it's one of the most-frequently-stolen books, it has sold way over a million copies and is still selling, and -- most importantly -- a lot of the mail I get about that book is written in pencil on ruled paper, with lots of erasings and rewritings, which tells me that the person writing doesn't often write letters. When I wrote that book my goal was to write it in such a way that anybody who'd made it through tenth grade would be able to read it easily. My colleagues in linguistics have made me pay for that, but if I had it to do over again the only change I'd make would be to write it in such a way that anybody who'd made it through sixth grade would be able to read it easily. But "verbal self-defense," in those days, was a new and catchy topic; it caught people's eyes in spite of the ugly cover. And Barnes & Noble got in there and marketed the daylights out of that book, with full page ads not only in the New Yorker but also in publications for veterans and in Sunday newspaper supplements .... they were all over the cultural/cognitive map with those ads. They did an ad that became a classic -- the one that advised people to get their "black belt in verbal self-defense" by reading the book, and they put it everywhere.

I don't know any way to package basic nutritional information for pregnant women and parents of tiny babies that would have that sort of appeal. It's true that when I wrote the GAVSD I was taking on a deeply-entrenched cultural construct -- the one that said "Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you, and if you can't handle those hostile words there's something wrong with you." And somehow I got past that. A lot of the credit goes to B&N and their marketing dollars. A lot goes to the fact that in those days I was young enough and strong enough to get out there and do endless workshops and seminars and bookstore signings and talks; I can't do that anymore. But changing the nutritional practices that I've been posting about would mean admitting that the traditional ones have been harming the children -- the way accepting the truth about secondhand smoke meant admitting to yourself that you'd been harming those you loved. That's a huge burden of guilt. It would hurt. People are already hurting. I don't see a way to persuade them to accept even more hurt, and in their place I'm reasonably certain that I'd behave exactly as they're behaving -- by fiercely defending my own parenting practices, and those of my parents and grandparents before me.

I'm grateful to you for being willing to discuss all this; it may be that the discussion will joggle something loose in my mind and show me a way to tackle this problem usefully. Or maybe one or more of you, most of you younger and stronger, will find a way and do it yourselves. But it hasn't happened yet.


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Apology in advance...
[info]ozarque
2005-12-07 03:38 pm UTC (link)
If this shows up twice, I apologize. I'll dump the second copy as soon as I see it -- if the winter storm predicted for us today/tonight/tomorrow doesn't take out our electric power and leave me computerless.

Very complicated.

(Reply to this)

LJ Response emails
[info]sunfell
2005-12-07 03:41 pm UTC (link)
The hiccup in your LJ response email is not your fault, it's LJ's. I've been getting tons of old responses too. It's stuff left over from when they transferred their servers to their new location.

They'll fix it eventually.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: LJ Response emails
[info]pthalogreen
2005-12-07 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I signed onto the computer to find 366 emails and went "ah, gee, not again". (this has happened before)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: LJ Response emails
[info]ozarque
2005-12-07 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Wonderful! That's the best news I've had yet today -- and your post saves me endless time I was expecting to have to spend trying to find the source of the difficulty. Many thanks for letting me know.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]pthalogreen
2005-12-07 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Just a minute or two after you posted this, status was updated on LJ to explaint he e-mail problem you're experiencing.

Here's al ink to the post: http://www.livejournal.com/users/status/85058.html

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-07 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Thank you!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]wolfinthewood
2005-12-07 04:03 pm UTC (link)
In this country a well-known TV chef, Jamie Oliver, has, to his credit, publicly taken on the problem of junk food school dinners, and has had considerable impact.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]neonchameleon
2005-12-07 04:34 pm UTC (link)
I was about to mention the same thing and programs like "You are what you eat" (although IIRC, that quack* Gillian McKieth presents it).

* I don't call people quacks without good supporting evidence - there's ample in this case.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]interactiveleaf
2005-12-07 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Some of you have said "Yes, you can write a book that is the nutritional equivalent of The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense."

Assuming that the reasons you've given for the success of GAVSB are true, I'm going to call the truth as somewhere between your opinion and your cheerleader's. It's a matter of how we define 'equivalent.' I am certain that you can write a book that is as intelligent, as easy to understand, as clear, as positive as that one; I don't think you can find a company to market it as well, because I don't think there's enough money to be had from it.

The people who don't already have this information are the folks who least have the discretionary $18.99 (or whatever a new book costs these days) to spend on your publication, or any other.

I know that you already know this. I just wanted to say it another way.

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[info]skylarker
2005-12-07 06:17 pm UTC (link)
If you are looking for an equivalent marketing strategy, how about presenting the book as a weapon for fighting The Brain-Sucking Zombie of Malnutrition?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-07 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Something just occurred to me: Isn't it amazing how somebody always ponies up the cash to hand out New Testaments left and right at no cost to the recipients, but we can't do that with ordinary, run-of-the-mill, lifesaving and life-enhancing information?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

part of the effort in this regard an be found here: - [info]wynnsfolly, 2005-12-07 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: part of the effort in this regard an be found here: - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-11 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: part of the effort in this regard can be found here: - [info]wynnsfolly, 2005-12-12 03:39 am UTC (Expand)
Re: part of the effort in this regard can be found here: - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-30 05:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: part of the effort in this regard can be found here: - [info]wynnsfolly, 2005-12-30 06:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: part of the effort in this regard can be found here: - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-31 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-07 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-08 01:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-08 01:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-08 02:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-08 02:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-08 02:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-08 03:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-08 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bat_cheva, 2005-12-08 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-08 10:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to kmd.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-08 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kmd, 2005-12-08 08:44 pm UTC (Expand)
the discretionary $18.99....
[info]ozarque
2005-12-07 06:30 pm UTC (link)
I am proud to be able to say that The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense, even as a hard cover, has never cost more than $10.00, and usually a good deal less. It started out at six bucks in hardcover and is up to maybe nine. If B&N were to try to take it over $10.00, I would throw as spectacular a protest-hissyfit as I could manage -- but I don't think they will. It's been a reliable loss leader for them for more than twenty years now, and they understand that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]nancylebov
2005-12-07 04:14 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for providing the forum for these discussions. Who'd have thought that $80 jeans could lead to something so interesting?

Is there any way to say "this is better" without implying "you've been fucking up"? (Apologies for the language, but I can't think of anything else with the same shade of meaning.)

You've got a point about food and drink, but I wonder whether what most poor people need is decency, and if they get that, they'll solve most of their own problems. Illegal immigrants manage a lot better in the US than they do at home because this is a less corrupt society--even though the illegals are substantially excluded from chances to participate in the economy. This suggests to me that there isn't much wrong with the illegals.

I don't have "decency" adequately defined, but it involves various sorts of fair treatment that don't necessarily involve active generousity except to the extent that being fair to people who you've been abusing feels like doing them a favor.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thecert
2005-12-08 01:23 am UTC (link)
Is there any way to say "this is better" without implying "you've been fucking up"?

Isn't that basically what good marketing does? "Our detergent is better than what you're using now [but that doesn't mean you screwed up by buying what you're using now]." "This car is faster." "These jeans are more stylish." Etcetera. This is particularly the case if you're pushing something innovative - a new choice (so of course the old choice wasn't screwing up; it was the best a consumer could do BEFORE THE NEW MAGIC PRODUCT).

Maybe nutrition could be pushed not as a new product but as new awareness. "Before, we didn't know just how GOOD FOR YOU this stuff is, but now we do." Maybe it's cynical to call this "marketing," but that's how junk food gets promoted, so why not healthy food?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Response to nancylebov....
[info]ozarque
2005-12-08 03:02 pm UTC (link)
The problem is the indispensableness of intelligence -- especially swift intelligence -- in today's economy. Only a few decades ago, physical strength and stamina (and decency) could be substituted for intelligence. There were plenty of jobs -- in manufacturing, for example -- with reasonably good salaries and benefits, available for anybody with a strong back who was willing to show up every day on time and do his or her best, and a little brain damage was not a barrier to getting those jobs. The vast majority of those jobs are gone now, and suddenly there are no good jobs unless you're sharp, and quick, and innovative, and ready for constant change. The rules of the game have been drastically changed.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Feed the Brain
[info]beckyzoole
2005-12-07 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Children's Television Workshop, the people who make Sesame Street among other shows, are doing some good work with this. They occasionally have muppets singing songs about vegetables, and characters discussing how much babies like milk.

I truly think that wide-spread education in the schools is the way to go. Both boys and girls need to be taught nutrition and childcare, and it needs to start early and it needs to be repeated often.

Lots of TV commercials, too. And maybe a soap-opera plot where someone's child is mentally retarded because she wouldn't stop drinking while she was pregnant. And a few through-away jokes in popular sitcoms about how inept some Dad is because he put Coca Cola in the baby's bottle.

Because, you're right, there are many reasons why a book isn't going to be as effective as you'd like it to be.

But there's no reason why a book couldn't be part of the plan. Even if it's one little part, every little bit helps.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Feed the Brain
[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-07 06:20 pm UTC (link)
I could see how the TV stuff might be taken as more "uppity city-folk nonsense," though.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Feed the Brain
[info]dichroic
2005-12-08 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Disney takes a stab at it as well. I've been watching the 5AM cartoons (that's about my brain level while on the rowing machine at that time) and I have to say I'm impressed. They have little between-cartoons skits (that are, to be truthful, 70% advertising - but the other 30% are on things like manners and nutrition and kids with cool hobbies and disable kids doing sports and resistance of peer pressure), occasionally good nutrition will be the central point of a cartoon like Lilo and Stitch, and the shows aimed at little kids like JoJo or the Wiggles try to get the kids up and moving.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]eclectic338
2005-12-07 06:43 pm UTC (link)
"The Gentle Art of Feeding Your Child" needs to get into the high schools (really the junior highs, but I know that won't happen), so the kids get the information before they have kids. I know I'd volunteer money to get it printed and into schools... I just wish it was that easy.

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[info]delurker
2005-12-08 10:55 am UTC (link)
We had a subject called 'home economics' at my school. Sadly 'home' was limited to the kitchen, and it was only 2 hours every fortnight, but we learnt about healthy eating and how to cook healthy food.
Naturally, it has now been cancelled - not prestigious enough.

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(no subject) - [info]vvvexation, 2005-12-09 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nolly
2005-12-07 11:38 pm UTC (link)
I think the biggest problem is that verbal self-defense is "how to make your life better", with a fairly short feedback cycle -- the time from implementing changes to seeing results, and the results are easy to connect to the changes. A nutrition book, on the other hand, is "how to make someone else's life better", and has a much longer feedback cycle, and it's much easier to attribute any changes to other circumstances. This makes it a much harder sell, no matter how good your marketing department is.

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[info]elfwreck
2005-12-08 02:25 am UTC (link)
I agree. Learning a new communication technique & putting it into practice can get noticeable results next week; learning new nutritional info & putting it into practice may *never* get "noticeable" results.

There's nothing particularly noticeable about "my kid's not stupid & unhealthy." It's not even a reasonable goal... parents will do things because they want their children to be smart, or athletic, or talented, or healthy, but not because they want them to be "not damaged."

I can't think of a good way to promote the idea of "healthy eating so your kid won't be the dumbest one in his class." Healthy eating to be smart/strong/disease-free/etc., sure. But this idea isn't about "be the best kid in your neighborhood!" It's "don't hurt your kids by feeding them garbage," and there's almost no polite way to say that, much less any way to explain simply why the foods they enjoy (and kids enjoy) are "garbage" and will "hurt" kids who eat them.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]redbird, 2005-12-08 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jenett, 2005-12-08 06:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to elfwreck.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 02:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to nolly.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 02:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]beccak1961
2005-12-08 12:00 am UTC (link)
I had no idea you had written TGAVSD, I have that, and Written self defense, and More Verbal Self Defense.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 02:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beccak1961, 2005-12-08 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rabidsamfan
2005-12-08 04:35 am UTC (link)
There is a book you could write, although in one sense it's been written, and that's about how the conversational style you use with very young children changes brains too.

"Growing a Reader from Birth: Your Child's Path from Language to Literacy" by Diane McGuinness, has some good information about what we've learned about how families talk to babies and toddlers, and how conversation style (particularly the use of an elaborative style) can change a child's verbal skills. She's written some other books as well, and drives me nuts because she doesn't recognize /Y/ as a phoneme, but is pretty good when it comes to looking at brain development and language.

The only trouble is, she's not writing for the audience that needs to hear the message. You can look at random pages in the amazon link if you'd like, and see what I mean.

I see parents who use elaborate language with small children, who do a lot of interacting (and caregivers, too, if they're not drowning in toddlers) and except for the occasional silent thinker, those children are more verbal and more imaginative than their peers. (The silent thinkers I've known all started talking in complete sentences around their third birthdays, and almost never mispronounced words.) I've also known families who were loving and caring and giving, but use much more direct language styles, and a lot fewer words in the day. And by kindergarten I've got a better than average chance of being able to tell which children will be good readers in grade three, just based on their ability to engage in word play.

Yeah, soda and twinkies do not a decent breakfast make, but I don't think you're the best person to get that one going. The local minister, maybe, or his wife! But words, and using words, and loving words... yeah, you could do that.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Book on better communication with kids.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 01:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Book on better communication with kids.... - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-08 02:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Book on better communication with kids.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]fibermom
2005-12-09 01:22 pm UTC (link)
Information on nutrition for pregnant women and infants is readily available in easy-to-read pamphlets with lots of pcitures, and is pressed on poor women at every visit to the clinic and the public health vaccination place. Those places are always covered with simple posters. Maybe TV is the answer.

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