ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-04 13:47:00
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Linguistics; propaganda; "Dad, I need 80 bucks...."
I don't know what you think of that "Dad, I need 80 bucks.." Ameritrade commercial running on CNN and the other news channels right now; I know what I think of it. It turns my stomach.

When the teenage girl tells her Dad she needs 80 bucks for a pair of jeans that she has to have because everybody has them, Dad asks her who the designer is, runs to his laptop and orders 100 shares of the designer's stock, and turns over the 80 bucks -- which, needless to say, he has right there in his pocket.

Not even one of the dialogues below takes place.

(1)
TEEN: "Dad, I need 80 bucks."
DAD: "You don't need 80 bucks. You want 80 bucks."

(2)
TEEN: "There's these jeans....."
DAD: "And you have to have them."
TEEN: "Yes."
DAD: "You don't have to have them, you want to have them."

(3)
DAD: "Do your friends have them?"
TEEN: "Everybody has them!"
DAD: "Then shame on their parents."

(4)
DAD: "Like you don't have enough jeans."
TEEN: "So, can I have the 80 bucks?"
DAD: "Absolutely not. All the kids in this world that don't even have clean water to drink, and you want 80-dollar designer jeans? No way. Go wash your mouth out with soap."


I find this commercial particularly repugnant when it comes along in the middle of the CNN documentaries about starving children in Africa, and the many thousands of children orphaned by AIDS, and the endless miles of devastation in New Orleans.

You talk about propaganda. The message going out all over the world is "This is how lots of people live in the United States. This is how they raise their kids. This is a loving Dad who takes good care of his family, always has a hundred spare dollars in his pocket, and is always watching for good tips that will make his stock portfolio even more profitable."

I had a note in my e-mail inbox this morning reporting that there are elders on the Pine Ridge reservation who've spent this past week in zero-degree cold with no heat whatsoever -- because the propane companies won't deliver unless you order the minimum $150.00 worth of fuel, and the elders don't have that $150.00 in their pockets.

Meanwhile, our vice-president is doing fundraisers for Tom Delay.


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[info]mrissa
2005-12-04 01:52 pm UTC (link)
Additional suggestions:

TEEN: Dad, I need 80 bucks.
DAD, not looking up from his book: I hear Taco Bell is hiring.

TEEN: Dad, I need 80 bucks.
DAD: Sucks to be you, huh?

(The advantage? disadvantage? of being the child of Baby Boomers is that more than half of your friends' parents will use the phrase "sucks to be you.")

My best friend from high school used to say things like, "Dad, I really want a car." And his dad would beam and pat his shoulder and say, "Good! It's good to want things," and move on with his life.

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[info]faithhopetricks
2005-12-04 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh jesu, I don't want to ever even imagine the result of me as a teenager telling my dad I needed eighty bucks, let alone for jeans. My parents tried to buy me all the books I wanted as a child (noone could have succeeded) but the idea of paying that much for jeans would have sent them both through the roof.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]redbird, 2005-12-04 02:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2005-12-04 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
"Sucks to be you...." - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 03:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "Sucks to be you...." - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-04 03:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "Sucks to be you...." - [info]queenmaggie, 2005-12-04 05:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "Sucks to be you...." - [info]archangelbeth, 2005-12-05 03:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "Sucks to be you...." - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "Sucks to be you...." - [info]trinker, 2005-12-12 07:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-05 01:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-05 02:12 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]takumashii
2005-12-04 01:52 pm UTC (link)
It is obscene, it really is. But perfectly understandable in context; this is a commercial for a stock brokerage, targeted at wannabe day traders. Who are the audience? People who already think it's their job to take care of their family by giving everyone in their family what they want.

I'm not sure if you saw CNN's segment on "alternative" ways to commute; it had the tone of, "Gee, some people take public transit to work. Some people ride their bikes. Isn't that wacky? Middle-class people like all of us probably wouldn't want to do that, unless we're hippies or something." CNN is used to the assumption that it is watched only by the middle-class.

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[info]faithhopetricks
2005-12-04 01:53 pm UTC (link)
I like (3). Heh.

I find this commercial particularly repugnant when it comes along in the middle of the CNN documentaries about starving children in Africa, and the many thousands of children orphaned by AIDS, and the endless miles of devastation in New Orleans.
You talk about propaganda. The message going out all over the world is "This is how lots of people live in the United States. This is how they raise their kids. This is a loving Dad who takes good care of his family, always has a hundred spare dollars in his pocket, and is always watching for good tips that will make his stock portfolio even more profitable."
I had a note in my e-mail inbox this morning reporting that there are elders on the Pine Ridge reservation who've spent this past week in zero-degree cold with no heat whatsoever -- because the propane companies won't deliver unless you order the minimum $150.00 worth of fuel, and the elders don't have that $150.00 in their pockets.


Yes, absolutely. It's horrifying, and infuriating.

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[info]pthalogreen
2005-12-04 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I agree with this a hundred percent, though I haven't seen the commercial (only have 5 channels oin my TV and only 3 in a language I understand (Hungarian). Conspicuous consumption makes me ill.

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[info]urox
2005-12-04 02:09 pm UTC (link)
You have to realize that this commercial is aimed at your average American with a particular income level. And honestly, most of America is in debt because it confuses needs with wants.

I take issue a little with your reaction of repugnance because you don't know how much that dad donates to charities or how much he does charitable work (both which might be significantly more than $80). Then again, people bringing up children in order to guilt people (not necessarily you) into the impossible task (at least by one person) of trying to solve world hunger or other global problems is one of my hot buttons... Apologies ahead of time for wandering over and commenting in your journal if my comments are unwelcome. You've always got the delete or screen buttons.

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-04 02:29 pm UTC (link)
(Michael Farris)

"most of America is in debt because it confuses needs with wants"

I thought that most of the American economy is based on getting people to confuse needs with wants. Not that there's anything wrong with wanting, per se but keeping the distinction clear is a very good idea.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

To urox.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 02:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: To urox.... - [info]porcinea, 2005-12-04 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: To urox.... - [info]porcinea, 2005-12-04 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: To urox.... re Pine Ridge problem - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 03:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: To urox.... - [info]urox, 2005-12-04 03:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thecert, 2005-12-05 01:29 am UTC (Expand)
Unburdening - [info]solri, 2005-12-05 04:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-04 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-04 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-04 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 01:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-05 02:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 02:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 02:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-05 04:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 04:20 am UTC (Expand)

[info]mangosteen
2005-12-04 02:09 pm UTC (link)
TEEN: I want 80 bucks.
DAD: Why?
TEEN: Because I want new jeans.
DAD: Why?
TEEN: Because everyone else is wearing them.
DAD: Why?
TEEN: Because they're cool!
DAD: Why?
TEEN: Because....
DAD: ....everyone's wearing them?
TEEN: Huh.

(Reply to this)


[info]hilleviw
2005-12-04 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I've taken to writing letters to companies over ads which I find repugnant. (Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee...except me.) I try to keep them civil and concise, be clear and specific about my concern. I do some research and choose a particular recipient, someone I believe will a) care, and b) have the power to make a change. I've sent half a dozen such letters. I've never had a response, but nor do those ads continue to air. Usually my complaint is gross sexism, but a sense of entitlement runs a close second.

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[info]ozarque
2005-12-04 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Good for you. That's a useful practice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fibermom
2005-12-04 02:34 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen the commercial. When my daughter was working at Abercrombie, though, she was supposed to buy a $98 pair of "destroyed" jeans. That means that they were already worn out before she bought them. Her daddy, once he grasped the problem, went to his dresser and pulled out a pair of jeans which had been destroyed honestly through being worn on a tractor and so on. They fit her, and she was set for work. I think the fashion was based on people's desire to look as though they had exciting lives, rather than just having money to waste on trendy jeans.

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[info]magid
2005-12-04 04:42 pm UTC (link)
I just saw a brief article today about how the fashion for distressed, distroyed, and otherwise not-new-seeming things (clothes and furniture, etc) was partly a desire for a sense of individuality, since all new things are cookie-cutter the same. (I don't know; I don't want that stuff myself, but it seemed plausible, at least as a partial explanation.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]fionnulaharp, 2005-12-04 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]polypolyglot
2005-12-04 02:44 pm UTC (link)
I grew up in modest means and would be appalled by that Ameritrade commercial if I saw it (I don't watch a lot of television anymore).

My parents recently made a trip to my mother's homeland, the Philippines. One of my uncles, an auto shop teacher near retirement makes in two weeks what I make in an hour.

I'm not ashamed of making what I do (which is about par for the newspaper industry). But it's made me more aware of what is necessary and what isn't.

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[info]interactiveleaf
2005-12-04 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Hi.

I liked your comment, checked out your journal, read the disclaimer, and added you to my friends list.

I'm no one in particular, and I don't expect you to friend me as well or any of that BS.

I just liked what I saw, so I'm keeping an eye on you. :D

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(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 03:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]interactiveleaf, 2005-12-04 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]polypolyglot, 2005-12-04 03:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]interactiveleaf, 2005-12-04 04:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]interactiveleaf, 2005-12-04 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]polypolyglot, 2005-12-04 03:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-04 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 06:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-04 07:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]polypolyglot, 2005-12-04 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-05 12:23 am UTC (Expand)

[info]which_chick
2005-12-04 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I was raised in a well-off (but frugal) household. (My dad is almost exactly like the guys described in The Millionaire Next Door book.) When I was a kid, there was ample money for groceries, medical care, books, education, and other stuff my parents approved of. (How do I know we were well-off? My two brothers and I got full rides through college paid for by my Dad out of pocket despite the fact that there were three years between us and the bills must have been hideous. I also got a car (used) when I got my license and had cars (used) provided for me until I got out of college. I started my post-college life with the (used, something of a beater, but paid for) car and no debt.)

There was NEVER money for things they thought were inappropriate. There was no money for designer jeans when I was in junior high (1983-1985 or so -- designer jeans were a big deal back then). I was told that we could not afford them because eighty dollars for a pair of jeans was completely insane. There was no Calvin Klein, no Gloria Vanderbilt, no Jordache, none of that for me. Dad reassured me that I would not DIE from not having jeans like that.

I still have a well-off (but frugal) lifestyle. It's one of the most useful and longest-lasting gifts I got from my parents.

On a tangent: I enjoy the NAPA ads about the 'handyman or handywoman' in your life. They didn't have to say that. They could have just said 'handyman' but they didn't. If I had any need for car repair stuffs, I'd go shop there just because of their inclusive ad. (And it's inclusive without being all HEY I'M BEING INCLUSIVE OVER HERE about it, which is really nice.)

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[info]kelsied
2005-12-05 12:25 pm UTC (link)
See, this is what got to me about that ad. We wouldn't have had the money to buy an $80 pair of jeans when I was a kid. I mean, just would not have had it. My parents occasionally -- occasionally stretched to buy us something like that for birthdays or christmas, if it was reeeeeally important, and then it was our big gift for that celebration. Shoot, why waste it on clothes then? Get something really cool that won't wear out....

I was appalled when I stopped being able to buy $20 jeans. $30 dollars is just way more than I want to spend on kickaround clothing. But $80?! No really, pull the other one...

So what kind of wealth must you have to have to be able to
1. give your daughter $80 for an ill-thought-out whim without any discussion or trade-offs, and
2. buy stock in the company without any further thought or any consideration of your overall financial situation whatsoever?

I wonder if this ad works for them. Because my reaction to it was... shoot, that's not the world I live in...

Well, that and... shoot, if they're doing that poor a job teaching their daughter to budget, she's not going to stay in that income bracket for very long once her parents are no longer there to bail her out.....

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]archangelbeth
2005-12-04 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Okay, I admit that we give our minx $5 a week, which is probably up there in upper-middle/low-wealthy, but... we also don't buy her any $80 jeans. (Which, even at age 5, we could probably do if we didn't got to Sears and head for the back "store brand" where most of the clothes are hovering in the $12-$9 range, depending on what sales are going on.) She's currently saving up for a $40 (GAK!) wargameish thing she's seen in the comics/books/games store we go to sometimes. No advance on allowance, no "oh, we'll just buy that for you, dear." (Though Santa may. *shiftyeyes* Darn that Santa.) She's up to $20! Hopefully this is good practice for controlling impulse spending.

Crossing fingers.

(As a note, she wants the wargame because it has little fantasy figures, not because she has much of a clue what a wargame is. The box shows little samurai-esque guys through the plastic, and the illustrations have others as well. I suspect she'll use it about how I used my Barbie giant (cardboard) house -- my Barbies ran around with plastic drink swords.)

By the way, anyone want a kitten? We have three who need to find homes before Christmas. See my LJ for details.

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[info]takumashii
2005-12-04 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Heroquest, right?

It's a *good* game, actually worth the $40, and not too hard to learn--hard for a 5-year-old, mayhap, but fine in three or four years (unlike most wargames out there, which require rulers and measuring and lots of math).

Just FYI for Santa.

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(no subject) - [info]takumashii, 2005-12-04 05:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2005-12-05 03:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pthalogreen, 2005-12-05 03:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]wolfangel78
2005-12-04 03:59 pm UTC (link)
The thing is, fairly average jeans -- Gap, say -- come quite close to $80 for jeans. Expensive jeans start closer to $200: no designer is selling their jeans for $80, except when they're on 65% off sales.

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[info]ozarque
2005-12-04 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Good heavens.

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(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-04 04:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]funnel101, 2005-12-04 05:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-04 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fionnulaharp, 2005-12-05 01:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lisamoe, 2005-12-04 07:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-04 08:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2005-12-04 07:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-12-05 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-05 04:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem...
[info]ozarque
2005-12-04 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Something I forgot to mention.... That new $150.00 minimum on propane orders has hit hard here in the Ozarks as well, which leads me to believe that it's going on in rural areas all over the country.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem...
[info]interactiveleaf
2005-12-04 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Do you know of any organizations for pooling money? I'd donate, I'd help, but I don't know how. Red Cross gets a monthly donation, but it's never enough.

People are going to die of the cold this winter, in Pakistan and India and New York and China and in the Ozarks, and I'm going to have survivor's guilt no matter what I do . . but if you know of a way I can help, I will.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem... - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-05 02:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 02:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem... - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-09 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Afternote on the Pine Ridge heating problem... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-10 01:48 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]brigidsblest
2005-12-04 04:25 pm UTC (link)
Conspicuous consumption is one of the things about this country that always makes me feel vaguely ill.

$80 for a pair of jeans seems (and always will seem) insane to me. I didn't have a pair of jeans during my teenaged years that weren't hand-me-downs--sometimes two or three times over. Most of them were at least 10 years out of date--either bellbottoms left over from the 60s or very high-water pants (and this during Reagan's '80s, when it was de rigeur to wear Calvin Kleins after seeing the commercials with Brooke Shields, whether you could afford them or not).

Then again, in a country where no one really bats an eye when someone throws his daughter a $10 million Bat Mitzvah party, why should $80 jeans raise an eyebrow? Disgusting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]wolfangel78
2005-12-04 04:46 pm UTC (link)
Yes, we can always insult what other people choose to spend their money on. That's always safe. "You wouldn't be poor if you just quit smoking!" is not that dissimilar to "It's wrong to spend more money than you have to on consumables, even if you can afford it."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 08:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-04 07:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-05 10:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-05 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-06 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
$10 million Bat Mitzvah - (Anonymous), 2005-12-06 12:38 am UTC (Expand)
yes $80 jeans, but - (Anonymous), 2006-03-31 07:51 am UTC (Expand)

[info]amaebi
2005-12-04 05:00 pm UTC (link)
With you.

You know, back when I taught economics, those of my students who would utter about such things instead of simply looking sullen, apparently felt quite comfortable saying that they weren't willing to have a little less in order that people in the U.S. and still less in other countries, might have faintly less ground-down lives.

Oddly, they were concerned about this even in classes in which the possibility of more efficient* production and distribution giving *everyone* more was a major point. My class in international trade, for instance.

It seems fairly clear that we're teaching people in the U.S. to clutch the bonuses they get by where and to whom they're born and to defend them cruelly....

*"More efficient" does not in general mean "firing lots of people and having all work done piecework," regardless how corporate re-org gets framed these days. This is true even on a firm-by-firm basis. On a naitonal basis, more efficiency involves more employment of labor and capital except in the rare case where the economy's already at full employment.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]la_chispa
2005-12-04 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Hi -- I work for a leftist economics publisher, so this post piqued my interest, and now I've friended you. Econ to seminary, huh?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]amaebi, 2005-12-05 02:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]amaebi, 2005-12-05 03:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]la_chispa, 2005-12-05 01:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]amaebi
2005-12-04 05:01 pm UTC (link)
BTW, since you're involved with Pine Ridge, are you familiar with Tink Tinker, one of my instructors in semianry?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-06 02:39 pm UTC (link)
No. I'm not directly involved with Pine Ridge, as it happens -- just in a Native American loop.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Discover Card
[info]applewoman
2005-12-04 05:39 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me of a Discover Card commercial I saw some time ago. It stuck with me because I was so horrified by its message.

A young man (mid-teens), who looks Native American, is commanded by an elder (your TV-stereotypical shaman) to journey into the world and search for his manhood (or words to that effect, I don't remember exactly). The young man goes out into the world, discovers the joys of consumer credit, and comes home with a giant TV and video game player that he bought with a Discover Card. As he and the elder play a video game, the elder says, "Now you are a man." Barely looking away from the video game, the young man nods.

The message here: American manhood must be purchased. And if you don't have money for giant TVs and video games, you are not a man.

YUCK.

(And that's not even getting into the gender implications of the ad. Double yuck.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: Discover Card
[info]treadpath
2005-12-06 02:34 am UTC (link)
I recently got annoyed at Discover because they sent me a replacement credit card with an American flag on it. Somehow, that suggests to me that they're suggesting that it is patriotic to be in debt. Oh, and also to get rid of it, I have to destroy an American flag. Grr...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Discover Card - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 02:32 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lillibet
2005-12-04 05:42 pm UTC (link)
The message going out all over the world is "This is how lots of people live in the United States.

Last night a friend of mine was talking about being an arts ambassador to Ukraine one summer several years ago and how all the kids there would ask her questions about the US and she would answer--based on her experience, which was pretty non-mainstream. She now looks back and laughs at statements she remembers making, such as:

"Baywatch? No one in the US really watches that."
"Makeup? No, American girls don't wear makeup much--that's just on TV."
"Homosexuality? Yeah, most people are pretty accepting of it."

___________________

Related to comments others have made--I was fascinated when checking in on modern Marxist theory, to find that many believe consumption has replaced production as the function of the proletariat within our capitalist society. Thinking back to 9/11, when Bush's exhortation to the masses was not "Go back to work!" but "Go out and shop!" it makes a lot of sense to me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pthalogreen
2005-12-05 03:42 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes my friends, knowing I've lived in America, will ask me questions about life in the states, completely seriously, they will ask questions like "are there dirt roads in America?" "is everything made of concrete?"

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]greybeta
2005-12-04 05:46 pm UTC (link)
The American economic system is capitalism, i.e. buying stuff we don't need. It must be something that is part of human nature though, as humans tend to hoard things. I mean, I'm a guy and my clothes drawer at home is packed full of stuff I should have given to the Salvation Army.

Wait a minute, that reminds me, I've gotta go do something...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Nit to pick...
[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-04 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Buying stuff we don't need is consumerism, not capitalism. Capitalism is using money to make money. One of the areas in which I and most other leftists and/or liberals part company is that I will not roundly condemn capitalism as evil. I see it as a tool, just like a knife. And as with a knife you can use it either to heal or to kill, or any of the shades in between.

Check out Vicki Robin's and Joe Dominguez's Your Money Or Your Life to see what I mean. They show how to use capitalism to help you break the link between work and money, so that you can be more effective in living your values. It's investing in safer vehicles rather than the stock market, but it's still investing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Nit to pick... - [info]greybeta, 2005-12-04 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]voidampersand
2005-12-04 07:15 pm UTC (link)
I don't think $80 is an outrageous price for a pair of jeans. Or, it wouldn't be if more of it went to the person who sewed them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]hilleviw
2005-12-04 07:53 pm UTC (link)
I feel similarly. I'm less anxious about the $80 jeans, than the ones at WalMart for $8. I look at the materials and the labor and the price tag and there's no way for it to balance. Every time I buy something really cheap I worry about who was sacrificed to make the price so low. If I didn't have the money to make choices, if it was a matter of choosing between keeping children warm or avoiding big-box shops, I would keep the children warm. But I do have the luxury of being able to afford consumer ethics, and I avail myself of this boon.

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(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 02:31 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]fionnulaharp
2005-12-04 07:46 pm UTC (link)
I am reminded of many years ago when I "needed" to have a 10 speed bicycle. My need was translated by my parents to -- earn half the cost and we'll match it -- as your birthday present.

Funniest thing, I managed to earn the money to get that bike. I had it until 10 years ago, when it was stolen. What we earn for ourselves, we keep.

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Effective charity can begin at home
[info]hilleviw
2005-12-04 07:55 pm UTC (link)
For everyone who lacks confidence about how to give effectively, I have a suggestion: go to a local church (after service if you don't want to participate in the service). Pick one that doesn't do things you abhor (Unitarian Universalist is a safe bet for liberals, also Quaker). Talk to the priest or minister or lay leader. He or she will know who - in YOUR community - needs help with heating oil or blankets or food, and will gladly pass your money along. Alternately, whoever runs your local food bank will also know where your help will make the greatest difference; your offering will be as anonymous as you want. If you want to make sure that this instance of generosity doesn't result in being on mailing lists to be solicited, just say so. Not only will you get compliance because it's the right thing, you'll get it because the law requires it.

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Re: Effective charity can begin at home
[info]fibermom
2005-12-06 12:39 am UTC (link)
Your local schools will also be able to gather things for individual families in need, if that is your preference.

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[info]basketcaselady
2005-12-04 09:05 pm UTC (link)
I don't have an issue with the commercial though I admit I haven't seen it. But if the father in it is represented as a real person, then presumably he has earned the money. Therefore it is his to spend the way he wants. Since the commericial is likely 30-60 seconds long, and designed to sell the ease of using a stock brokerage, it wouldn't have time to cover what volunteer work he does, the daughter does, or where they donate to charity, how much they donate, and whether they pay their credit card balance off each month. It also couldn't cover in this short time whether or not researched the investment.

As parents we want our children to learn what it means to work hard to achieve what they want in life and so that they can have comfortable lives. There's nothing wrong with a comfortable life. It's not a shame, not a travesty. I think it's what most of us want for ourselves and our kids.

I am less concerned that this father is paying $80 for jeans as I would be that he isn't saving a portion of his earnings each pay day for "emergencies" or retirement. Though since he has stock investments, he likely is.

The plight of the Pine Ridge Indians is indeed sad and it would be wonderful if people reach into their pockets to help out. We all make a personal decision of where, when who and how we make these donations. If this "fictional" father has choosen to give food to the local foodbank, instead of the Indians, should he feel bad about giving his daughter something she wants?

I think it's important to note that he gave her cash instead of plastic.

And I have no issue with our vice-president doing fundraisers for Tom Delay. We ALL are entitled to support people and causes that we believe in, even when we disagree with the conservatives, even when we disagree with the liberals.

And we all decide where our priorities are. I personally wouldn't pay $80 for jeans, but I pay that much for nice yarn to knit a sweater.

I hope you don't mind an opinion that conflicts with yours ;)

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I hope you don't mind an opinion that conflicts with yours ;)
[info]ozarque
2005-12-05 02:44 pm UTC (link)
"I hope you don't mind an opinion that conflicts with yours ;)"

I don't mind at all. Conflicting opinions courteously expressed are always welcome here.

I'm not able to understand how it can be moral to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on political campaigns year after year while millions around the world die of malaria or from the lack of clean water. (Nor am I suggesting that you approve of that, by the way -- it just comes to my mind in the context of the Tom DeLay fundraiser.) But perhaps someday someone, if I listen carefully and respectfully, will present an argument that convinces me that I'm wrong about that. Unless I listen, I'll never know.

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Re: I hope you don't mind an opinion that conflicts with yours ;) - [info]basketcaselady, 2005-12-05 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]takumashii
2005-12-04 09:15 pm UTC (link)
One thing that strikes me:

There's a full version of the commercial and a shortened version. In the full version, about 30 seconds longer, we have the following dialogue:

DAD: Who's the designer?

DAUGHTER: Like you care...

DAD: I care!

He doesn't care as a matter of curiosity, or relating to his daughter; he wants it to buy stock. And he pays his daughter $80 for giving him a stock tip. Family relations, reduced to a financial transaction.

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[info]ethesis
2005-12-04 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Interesting.

Do we really need more than two rooms in our houses?

I've known families -- in the United States -- that slept kids up to six to a bedroom. They were moderately well off, net values probably over two million but less than ten million, dairy farmers with all the kids put to good use on the farm.

I have mixed feelings when I reflect on them. Is eighty dollars for jeans worse than paying $400.00 a year for high speed internet or spending money on cable television? Owning a cell phone or a PDA?

Not lending out spare bedrooms to (or having bedrooms in our houses shared with) strangers in need?

Given how much people lose on day trading, a good hot tip is worth something ...

Anyway, I've mixed feelings, though at this time of year I think it is important to think of people who are on propane and need help adjusting to the new minimums. I'm looking for a donation link for the elders on Pine Ridge.

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