ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-02 17:38:00
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Linguistics; Ozark English; "About Cows, and Ozark English Discourse"
About Cows, and Ozark English Discourse

Let's just suppose that when someone is about to speak they have four broad goals for the language sequence they use: that it be understood; that it be believed; that it give pleasure (or at minimum that it not provoke hostility); and that it be remembered. The way in which these goals are ranked in importance for the speaker is a matter of personal choice, with the most typical order probably being understanding, then believing, then either pleasure or remembrance -- depending. A crochety and elitist professor might rank a classroom utterance as RUBP; that is: "I want you to remember this. I hope you understand it. I'd prefer you to believe it, but if you don't, so be it. And I'm not particularly interested in whether it gives you any pleasure or not." The politician making a routine political speech might choose BPRU. The Ozark speaker who makes choices that strike the purist as excessively nonstandard usually does so deliberately, based on the ranking given to those four communication goals. Which brings us to those cows. Consider this:

1. "Come get your cows."

This utterance puts understanding first; it's in English, it's an unambiguous command, and it has no extra words in it to interfere with comprehension. It puts belief next; nobody would say such a thing if the cows weren't really there needing to be retrieved. Remembering follows; any Ozark English speaker knows this utterance is so rude that it's unforgettable. As for giving pleasure, the speaker is either almost indifferent to this goal or is deliberately working against it. [It wouldn't be true to say that the speaker hasn't considered giving pleasure at all. There are worse things that could have been said, such as "Come get your damfool cows" or "Come get your cows, or else."]

Here are some of the many alternative ways to start letting somebody know that their cows are on your property and should be removed by said somebody -- with the stipulation that they're all said neutrally, not sarcastically or condescendingly or with hostile intonation. Examples 2-9 are Ozark English; example 10 is not.

2. "Guess what I just saw in my front yard?"
3. "You might want to take a look at what's in my front yard."
3. "You'll never believe what I just saw in my front yard."
4. "Might could be you'd want to take a look out your east window toward my front yard."
5. "You know, I do believe your cows are out."
6. "I'm wondering ... do you know where your cows have got to?"
7. "Hey, guess where your cows are? [Or "are now?" Or "are this time?"]
8. "I do hate to say it, but I'm about at the end of my tether with your cows."
9. "I'm truly sorry to have to tell you this, but your cows are in my yard again."
10. "I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but your cows are in my yard again. I'm afraid you will have to come get them."

Each of these utterances demonstrates a speaker's strategy based upon a particular ranking of the four communication goals. Because come the day your neighbor's cows are in your yard and you want that neighbor to come get them, you can't say just any old thing. Cows are a nuisance in a way that's almost awesome. And if you don't choose your words with care, you'll find yourself with one of two outcomes: (a) your neighbor says, "Be damned if I'll come get 'em!" and hangs up on you; or (b) your neighbor says, "I'll get to that, first chance I have." Either of those responses means you're in for a bad day, and there is no County Cow Catcher you can call for assistance. The list of good excuses that can be offered for not yet having come to get those cows is as infinite as any formal construct you might care to devise.

Do not think that if you decide you'll just get rid of the cows yourself it will be easy. It is easier to move a department chairman than it is to move even one cow. Fire a .45 over the head of a department chairman or drive straight at one with a pickup truck, he (or she) will move; a cow will not. I have tried both of those tactics any number of times, and no cow has ever so much as budged. It's not just a matter of saying, "Shoo, cows!" Trust me.

If I were actually to say to you, "Come get your cows," one of the two things I want you to understand is that I don't give a hoot how you feel about that utterance or how you feel about me personally. "I'm afraid you will have to come get them" is almost as bad. I know someone who would say that, because that someone would rather suffer the consequences of cows than stoop to the use of Ozark English. That someone will forever suffer the consequences of cows-in-the-yard, and many other unpleasantries -- but it is her conscious and deliberate choice. It is a militant refusal to speak OzE. Publicly, she will blame Providence for the perpetual presence of other people's cows on her property, but she knows better.

It happens that the best choice on that list, the one least likely to end you up with a chronic cow problem, is the entirely nonstandard #4 with its double modal. That example has as its metamessage: "Now, there's a problem over here, and I'm not pleased, and we need to talk about it, and you need to fix it. But I want you to know that I am on your side and that I admire the way you look after your cows." And its ranking is UPRB.


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[info]hilleviw
2005-12-02 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I've got this image now of you waving a .45 at the department chairman "Peacetalk be damned, might could be I'm teaching this my way and you're going to like it!"

(Reply to this)


[info]redbird
2005-12-02 05:52 pm UTC (link)
I don't know your non-OzE-speaker, but that's not my dialect either, and I don't see any problem with 2, 3, or 5-9 in terms of standard English.

In such a circumstance (nobody near me keeps cows, as far as I know, nor do I currently have a front yard, alas) can see myself calling, or calling on, my neighbor and saying something like "Would you like to come over and have a cup of tea? I'd like to show you what's in my front yard." And then, I hope, s/he'd come over, we'd drink tea and talk, probably about non-cow-related topics but possibly also about the difficulties of keeping fences in order, and the cows would go home with their owner.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-02 06:02 pm UTC (link)
Your suggested solution is both elegant and civilized. However, the amount of damage that the cows would have done by the time you had put it into practice would be substantial; I believe you when you say that nobody near you keeps cows, as far as you know. You're talking 30 civilized minutes at least, and that's if your neighbor is close by and has a car and doesn't feel obliged to go shower and change before joining you. The mess that cows can make in 30 minutes defies description. You need to say something that will persuade your neighbor to come get the cows immediately.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]redbird, 2005-12-02 06:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lyonesse
2005-12-02 05:55 pm UTC (link)
how does #10 violate OzE? is it syntactic, idiomatic....?

is #4 the best choice because it is the syntactic construction most in violation of QE ("the queen's english") which is also valid in OzE? or is it something else expressed by the dual modal, such as politeness, as with the construction "If you please, might you perhaps..." in a QE request?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-02 06:05 pm UTC (link)
The "violation" is the sum of the uncontracted "you will" and the missing intensifier.

#4 is the best choice because of the "might could," yes. If you don't want to send that metamessage you just say "probably," you don't say "might could."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lyonesse, 2005-12-02 06:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]which_chick
2005-12-02 06:00 pm UTC (link)
I love this example. I have *lived* this example -- friends of mine keep cows who do not stay in well because the fence is mostly symbolic and when I'm visiting and the cows are out, I am part of the cow retrieval team.

For the more urban readers:

Cows do get out.

People make phone calls to tell cow owners that their cows are out.

This is an absolutely real and current modern dialogue event such as might occur in any give weekend at my friend La's house.

(Reply to this)


[info]mrissa
2005-12-02 06:05 pm UTC (link)
The thing I have had the hardest time getting people to understand is that #s 2-4 are not "hidden messages." They are, in their own dialect, perfectly clear. Just as when a Minnesotan is asked how she is doing and says, "could be better," she is not hiding the fact that things are not good for her. She is not putting a good face on things or being a stoic. She is saying in the most certain terms her dialect has that this is bad. Other people who speak the same dialect interpret her words that way and not as a "stiff upper lip."

Similarly, "Guess what's in my front yard?", intoned properly, only leaves doubt if the speaker keeps more than one kind of livestock prone to getting out and creating havoc -- goats, for example, or small children. It is not genuinely a game of 20 Questions. The hearer may answer, "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" (phrased appropriately for that dialect) if he/she has the right relationship with the speaker, as a joke to smooth the edges of the conversation, but there is no actual uncertainty as to what has happened.

I know far, far too many people who think that if you do not use the phrase "your cows are in my yard," you have not communicated the cows' location, and I am driving myself up the proverbial wall trying to convince them that not everybody communicates that way -- and indeed, that almost everybody communicates in other ways at times they consider appropriate.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]woodwardiocom
2005-12-02 06:12 pm UTC (link)
I know far, far too many people who think that if you do not use the phrase "your cows are in my yard," you have not communicated the cows' location

-The other half of that is the pervasive belief, especially prevalent among people who use the 'Net a lot, that "A factual statement cannot give offense." If "Your cows are in my yard," is a statement of fact, people who hold that belief cannot see the problem with including that in the sentence. But, I gather there is a problem with that, in Ozark English.

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(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-09 07:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-09 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-02 09:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-03 01:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-02 06:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]koogrr, 2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-03 03:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elisem, 2008-04-28 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trillian42, 2005-12-02 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)
not "hidden messages" - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-03 04:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-04 06:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-04 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
cows can run...cows can fly - [info]mtmwdb, 2005-12-13 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: cows can run...cows can fly - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-18 01:15 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]woodwardiocom
2005-12-02 06:08 pm UTC (link)
-Hmm. I'd probably say something like, "Hey Joan, it's Jon. I'm afraid your cows are in my yard again. Let me know if I can help you get them back." This is very close to the way I bring problems, that aren't in my ambit, to the attention of the correct person, in my day job as a software engineer. "Hey Roland, I noticed the OXI interface coughed up some problems this weekend. Here's the relevant data. Let me know if I can help you with that."

-But, I'm not Ozark, so this might be rude in Ozark English.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]babalon_it
2005-12-02 06:20 pm UTC (link)
LOL - looks like you and I think alike. Both of us are offering to help fix the situation...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Why's that? - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 01:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-07-06 06:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]houseboatonstyx, 2006-04-05 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]babalon_it
2005-12-02 06:16 pm UTC (link)
My first thought would be to say:

Hi. Your cows are in my yard. Can I help you with getting them back home?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]msminlr
2005-12-03 04:02 am UTC (link)
Yeah, but you're probably not a gray-haired lady who walks with a cane and comes maybe up to the cow's nostrils.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

now that you've got me thinking about it...
[info]dpolicar
2005-12-02 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Neat.

The first time, I'd probably go with some variant of "Sorry to bother you, but it's the most remarkable thing... there seem to be some cows in my front yard. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know if you recognize them?"

I'm not quite sure _why_ I'd say it that way. Of course there's all the hedginess, just to soften the effect. And I guess I'm giving them a handful of face-saving ways out, including refusing to accept responsibility but offering to take care of them for me "as a favor".

The second time, it would just seem too weird to pretend not to recognize the cows, even if we were all playing the same game. Not sure what I'd do.

I suspect what I'd actually do is deal with the cows myself, then a couple of days later start up some conversation about how difficult it is to control where cows get to, and how much of a nuisance that is for everyone, and how embarassing it is when cows end up in one's neighbors yard, and various ways for dealing with that.
Where in my head, I'm clearly saying: "I'm annoyed and expect you to at least apologize for your carelessness with your %#$!@#! cows."

I suspect this would be a singularly unhelpful way of dealing with the situation, but it does appear to be my general style. :-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: now that you've got me thinking about it...
[info]ozarque
2005-12-02 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Well, first off, you're not bothering them. Cows are valuable animals, and cows that can get into your yard can also get out in the road and interact with cars; you're doing your neighbors a favor when you notify them that their cows are out. And you wouldn't want to say that there seem to be some cows in your front yard. Cows are big; there wouldn't be any doubt about it. [Note: "Seem" probably doesn't work that way in Standard English.] As for suggesting that the neighbor should look at the cows and see if he/she recognizes them .... I'd advise against that. The neighbor may or may not recognize the cattle -- depending on how many there are, how long he/she has had them, and so on. The neighbor would in fact probably recognize other people's cattle. And there will be tags in each cow's ear that identify them.

None of this is anything you'd have any reason to know unless you lived (or had lived) around cows, needless to say. It's like the things people who live in Manhattan know about navigating the streets and the corridors. Regional. You should have seen me trying to figure out how to get a cab to stop for me in New York when I was on book tour there. Not pretty.

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Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - (Anonymous), 2005-12-03 12:47 am UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]dpolicar, 2005-12-03 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]leiacat, 2005-12-12 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rbos
2005-12-02 06:40 pm UTC (link)
I find that whacking cows with a shovel gets them movin' pretty quick.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

sounds dangerous to me...
[info]djinnthespazz
2005-12-02 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Are you far enough away from that amazing perpendicular leg kick they can do?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]nikkiqafux, 2008-07-11 04:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rbos, 2008-07-11 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carlalyzaj, 2008-07-16 12:40 am UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]cynthia1960
2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'll have to ask my brother about the phrasing that was used when he was told that a couple of his beef cattle were currently strolling down the main street of Sunol, California.

(Reply to this)


[info]jehannamama
2005-12-02 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I lived on the edge of Appalacia for more than half my life, and cows in the yard were common, even in the middle of town. One would think that I would have learned some of the customs, at least so that I could communicate.... yet I had a great deal of difficulty with figuring out what people meant when they said some things, and the protocols, particularly in rural areas. I mean, there are these rituals that one goes through when one is wanting to ask a favor or even just for information, and by the time I hashed through all that, I'd end up being oblivious to what they were hinting around about wanting. Why not just ask me for that cup of sugar and then we could get that out of the way and have a nice natter over tea, if you have time?

Of course, I do have a hearing loss and social anxiety and probable mild Asperger's, and I was raised in Southern California, so anything that is other than totally up front, hit-me-with-a-2X4 blunt, is likely to whizz right over my head.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Help me out, here...
[info]ninevirtues
2005-12-02 09:05 pm UTC (link)

Why would being raised in Southern California make you oblivious to any conversation that is not completely forthright?

listening in fascination,

G

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Help me out, here... - [info]jehannamama, 2005-12-02 10:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-03 06:20 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]jehannamama, 2005-12-04 03:24 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-04 04:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]starcat_jewel
2005-12-02 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Why is it, would you say, that OzE seems not to contain the word "please"? To me, the basic/polite framing of this is, "Your cows are in my yard. Please come and get them." The tone of voice in which it's said may indicate anything from resignation to a neutral request to extreme annoyance, but the request itself is clear and polite.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]dawnd
2005-12-02 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for asking this. I've been wondering myself. As someone whose formative years were in upstate NY, and who has spent more than 1/2 her life in CA, I have a hard time grasping some of these finer points of OZE. And I can see that this has been handicapping me in my communications with folks from this general area of the country.

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(no subject) - [info]thraxarious, 2005-12-02 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-02 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-03 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 06:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 07:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-02 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-02 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-02 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-03 01:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-03 05:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-03 02:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to delurker.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-04 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]istemi, 2005-12-03 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vvvexation, 2005-12-07 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]appadil, 2005-12-12 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 04:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:44 am UTC (Expand)
"It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-06 01:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-07 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-07 06:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-08 07:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-10 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]steviedeviant, 2006-09-28 04:36 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke)... and to steviedeviant.... - [info]ozarque, 2006-09-28 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Off-topic: How I found this discussion - [info]steviedeviant, 2006-09-30 03:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Off-topic: How I found this discussion.. response to steviedeviant... - (Anonymous), 2006-09-30 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Hinting is evil... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 08:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hinting is evil... - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hinting is evil... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2005-12-12 06:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 04:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinker, 2005-12-09 12:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-10 12:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinker, 2005-12-10 02:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]siderea, 2005-12-09 02:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 05:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 06:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 06:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-03 07:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 07:29 am UTC (Expand)
Response to sculpin.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to sculpin.... - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 08:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-02 10:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-02 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to Redhawke - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]the_red_baron, 2005-12-03 06:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Could you do me a favor.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 08:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Could you do me a favor.... - [info]dpolicar, 2005-12-04 04:25 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Could you do me a favor.... - (Anonymous), 2005-12-05 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Could you do me a favor.... - [info]vvvexation, 2005-12-05 10:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Could you do me a favor.... - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 06:37 pm UTC (Expand)
autonomy vs interdependence - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 01:32 am UTC (Expand)

[info]dorianegray
2005-12-02 09:14 pm UTC (link)
It happens that the best choice on that list, the one least likely to end you up with a chronic cow problem, is the entirely nonstandard #4 with its double modal. That example has as its metamessage: "Now, there's a problem over here, and I'm not pleased, and we need to talk about it, and you need to fix it. But I want you to know that I am on your side and that I admire the way you look after your cows."

Could you elaborate on this a bit, please? I get how #4 says the first part of the metamessage. But I'm lost on how it implies that the speaker admires how the other person looks after their cows.

Or is this something that involves so much cultural background as to be completely inexplicable to outsiders?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]azurelunatic
2005-12-02 10:48 pm UTC (link)
This part of the thread discusses the double modal metamessage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wizwom
2005-12-02 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. Personally, I don't see why telling someone they've let their cows get in your yard is rude... but I seem to be really cluless on where upon the rude-o-meterr my conversation strays.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2005-12-03 12:33 am UTC (link)
My first thought upon reading Suzette's post was "Those Ozarkers are extremely polite -- even when you let your cows stray onto their land and mess up their yard, they're unwilling to say anything as blunt as '(Please) remove your cows from my yard.' They just suggest you might want to take a look at the situation."

My second thought was "Those Ozarkers are extremely rude -- if they let their cows stray onto your land, they won't even come get them promptly if you don't jump through the right verbal hoops in your request. I'm glad I don't live in their area."

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[info]dpolicar
2005-12-03 02:32 am UTC (link)
With respect to the latter, they are no ruder than I am, I think.

If, say, my garbage can was blown over into my neighbor's yard and he stood outside my door yelling "Get your garbage off of my property THIS VERY INSTANT!" I'd be inclined to dawdle, precisely because he failed to phrase the request properly. (Despite being entirely clear about what he wanted.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 07:50 am UTC (Expand)
Response to sculpin.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to sculpin.... - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-03 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
garbage can in neighbor's yard - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: garbage can in neighbor's yard - [info]umidori, 2005-12-07 08:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: garbage can in neighbor's yard - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-07 09:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: garbage can in neighbor's yard - [info]umidori, 2005-12-08 02:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: garbage can in neighbor's yard - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-08 01:35 pm UTC (Expand)
extremely polite/extremely rude - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:20 pm UTC (Expand)
urban equivalents - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-03 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: urban equivalents - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 03:46 am UTC (Expand)
Re: urban equivalents - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: urban equivalents - [info]sam_t, 2008-04-29 02:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: extremely polite/extremely rude - [info]beckyzoole, 2005-12-04 06:56 am UTC (Expand)
Re: extremely polite/extremely rude - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-04 04:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]eldriwolf
2005-12-03 02:28 am UTC (link)
I can hear someone saying number five "You know, I do believe your cows are out."---Particularly if one was, say, IN the kitchen

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[info]twistedchick
2005-12-03 02:40 am UTC (link)
Hmm. Ozark cows must be a lot tougher than western NY cows; the ones that used to wander into my garden could be chased out with a golf club swung in their general direction from a good distance away. (But there were never more than two or three at a time except the time there were seven, and that time we had a dog barking at them, too, which kept them from getting comfortable in the broccoli.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-03 02:49 pm UTC (link)
Ozark cows, except in rare cases like the Walton's livestock, tend to be in herds small enough that they're a good deal like pets, except that they're not trained. If I weren't scared of them I'd do what my neighbors do -- that is, instead of trying to drive them out of my yard with noises and pickup trucks and so on, I'd try to lead them out with a bucket of something they really like to eat in my hand. Because I'm so afraid of them, that option isn't open to me, but your average three-year-old Ozark child can come with a bucket of treats and lead them home. No problem. And your average three-year-old child finds the idea of a grown woman who can't do that almost incomprehensible. It puts me in a curious position in terms of status, and I'm fortunate to know only Ozark children who feel sympathy for me rather than contempt.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]the_red_baron
2005-12-03 05:35 am UTC (link)
I'm not an Ozark speaker - I'm from Lafayette, Louisiana (a decent-sized city, so my dialect's much closer to standard than rural Cajun) - but #10 does strike me as pretty deeply rude, actually worse than "Come get your cows." It's the "you will have to" part that's a problem for me; there are very few situations where I'd consider it acceptable to tell an adult that they have to do something, rather than requesting that they do it.

It's very interesting that you say #4 is most polite to you - I have a very hard time imagining somebody saying that without a tone of deep sarcasm and a metamessage of "Don't you pay any attention to where your livestock are?"

My way of dealing with the situation would most likely be "Sorry to have to bother you, but your cattle are out in my yard; do you think you could come and get them?"

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2005-12-03 10:55 am UTC (link)
(michael farris)

I spent a good chunk of my childhood with my cousin and her husband who raises beef cattle and find it's not that hard to move them if I'm on the ground. My cousin has a special sound (sort of like a grunted "aaaaeeeee!" but fast) that she says is universal in getting the attention of children, dogs, horses and cattle (cats could care less) and letting them know you're not pleased. I can manage a second rate version and it moves them pretty surely (it helps to repeat it and clapping your hands angrily between "aaaeeeh!'s" as you march toward them doesn't hurt).

I noticed they took their own good time getting off the road (they like to congegrate on the dirt road because there are fewer bugs there) when I was driving but kept well away from anything my cousin was driving . "They've learned I don't stop" was all the explanation she ever gave.

Interestingly, my mother who feared very little was also leary of cattle because she couldn't "read" them. I guess I can because they mostly seem pretty harmless to me regardless of size. The two exceptions are bulls (sometimes) and mothers with very young calves. But most of the time cattle don't want humans near them (we're their predators after all) and will take the initiative in putting space between you and them whenever they can.

As a toddler I once wandered right into a pen of (potentially very dangerous) bulls and my cousin's husband had a very nervous time at the edge of the pen trying to very calmly persuade me to get out of there (if he got in the pen it would have been much more dangerous). But as long as it was just me, they just sniffed at me a little and tried not to step on me until I got tired and left.

I think in their circles they cared more about where cows got out than in how they were told. News of loose cattle meant a lot of work (find the break in several miles of fence and get it fixed and find a way to round up the cattle and get them back in and the sooner it all started the better). Promptness and any information on which way they came from or were headed were the prime elements of politeness in that situation.

(Reply to this)

Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke)
[info]conuly
2005-12-03 04:57 pm UTC (link)
That's a glitch thing, really, about the comments - everybody I know has had that happen a few times lately. I wouldn't worry about it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke)
[info]conuly
2005-12-03 06:31 pm UTC (link)
See? It just happened to me! This comment was meant in reply to a comment of [info]ozarque's.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]istemi
2005-12-03 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Suzette, I wonder if you have any suggestions for detecting when your dialect rules don't match someone else's BEFORE you insult them. What's a safe neutral? What are likely trouble spots?

I was struck that an offer to help round up the cows might be understood as doubting someone's cow-competence. I would certainly offer to help (albeit with cautions about my lack of cow skills). It would be rude to stand around with my hands in my pockets while someone else is working, and working for my benefit even if they're responsible for the current situation.

In this thread of comments, you note


Yes. When I have to interact directly with an Urban New York speaker -- especially if I have to do it on the telephone -- I am tiptoeing over linguistic eggshells the entire time, and paying acute attention. It's also a situation in which it's very hard to do repair when things go wrong.


What would signal to you that something had been misunderstood? Does it happen before serious damage has been done?

Thank you for such an interesting post.


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Response to istemi....
[info]ozarque
2005-12-03 08:35 pm UTC (link)
"Suzette, I wonder if you have any suggestions for detecting when your dialect rules don't match someone else's BEFORE you insult them. What's a safe neutral? What are likely trouble spots?"

If only.... That question is the single most frequent question I've been asked by emergency physicians in urban hospitals (during medical seminars). They want a list of the pragmatics rules for each language and dialect they have to deal with -- they have to deal with them in a hurry and they don't want to lose precious seconds because of communication breakdowns. I always tell them the same thing: We need a huge database of those rules, indexed by language and by dialect and linked to their relevant metaphors. And we'll never have it until linguists get in there with the native speakers of those languages and dialects and do the fieldwork. Any time a piece of that data comes my way, I add it to my files, but such occasions are few and far between. It's hard fieldwork; you get a few obvious things very fast, and they're useful, but getting any farther can take a very long time.

You also asked, in the context of the conversations I have with New York natives: "What would signal to you that something had been misunderstood? Does it happen before serious damage has been done?"

With most New Yorkers, the matter of a "signal" is a bit different. I always know instantly that I've been misunderstood, because they just say, straight out, "Oh for god's sake, Suzette...." or "Oh, don't get weird on me, Suzette... " or "Are you out of your mind?" -- followed by whatever it was that set them off. Very direct. No "manipulation." I try to head those episodes off because so much of my time and theirs gets wasted that way.

The only safe neutral communication format I know is Computer Mode with neutral intonation. It 's not perfect -- there are people who find it offensive -- but it is the closest thing I know to a safe neutral.

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Re: Response to istemi.... - [info]wilfulcait, 2005-12-04 09:24 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dawnd
2005-12-03 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I just wanted to say how very very helpful this discussion has been. Not only am I pleased to see that you are valuing the words of my good friend [info]redhawke, but this whole discussion has demystified some very awkward communications between myself and some of my other OzE-speaking friends. Said communications had gotten me labeled as "rude," "mothering," and "patronizing." Conversely, I found their communications to be "passive-aggressive," "manipulative," and infuriatingly indirect. We can all see now that what we have is a massive clash of dialectical rules. This will certainly not solve all of our communications problems overnight, but I think it has gone a long way toward repairing some of the worst damage, and creating a new atmosphere of openness. Thank you.

For my part, I sincerely hope that your episode on OzE eventually gets aired on PBS, and that these very excellent insights make it out to the wider world where they can enlighten many more people.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ozarque
2005-12-04 01:51 pm UTC (link)
And thank you for your comment, and for the good wishes. I don't there's much hope for the video -- it's been years now, and the "buzz" for the series is long gone. But I agree -- I wish it could happen.

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(no subject) - [info]trinker, 2005-12-09 12:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-10 07:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2005-12-12 07:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]beckyzoole
2005-12-04 06:30 am UTC (link)
YES!

This is exactly how I feel, too. Hinting, indirect requests come across as a game of one-upmanship, like a playground chant of "Nyah, nyah, I know something you don't know".

First you have to guess what it is they think you should do, and if you guess wrong they get to take it as proof of your incompetency.
Then you have to volunteer to do this thing for them, which means you are not doing them a favor and so cannot ask them for anything in return.
If you do not want to do whatever it is you guess that they want you to do, you have no way of telling them that or even of explaining why you cannot do it.
Worst of all is if you guess wrong and, although you are trying to comply with their assumed request, what you do is not the secret thing they actually wanted you to do. Then they can really beat you with the "you're an idiot" stick!

But in my experience the people who do this most often are not the people who feel comfortable with their authority. It's more often done by people who feel uncertain and threatened, as a way of asserting an authority that they are not sure they are entitled to have. It's a way of exerting power that is accessible to someone who is otherwise powerless.

I think this may be why indirect requests became common in Ozark English. In an impoverished, disadvantaged community, there are very few opportunities to exert authority over others. By habitually using the indirect request form, the requester puts himself in a position of power, and the responder, who is habituated to the form and thus knows how to play the game well, gets to demonstrate his own power and competency as well, by correctly guessing what the requested action is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

This was in response to <lj user=starcat_jewel>
[info]beckyzoole
2005-12-04 07:04 am UTC (link)
The comment above (starting with a heartfelt "YES!") was in response to this comment by [info]starcat_jewel.

Ever sence the servers were moved, there have been these problems with comments showing up in odd places -- as well as people not getting comment notifications. I hope LJ gets its act together soon. It's getting frustrating.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sculpin, 2005-12-04 09:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beckyzoole, 2005-12-09 10:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 06:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elisem, 2008-04-29 12:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:26 pm UTC (Expand)
The Mama Noise & Cat Speak
[info]ab_xnfp
2005-12-07 12:56 pm UTC (link)
My cousin has a special sound (sort of like a grunted "aaaaeeeee!" but fast) that she says is universal in getting the attention of children, dogs, horses and cattle

Ah! The Mama Noise! (or is it The Granny Noise?) It's a remarkably hard sound to reproduce in type. I believe this may have be THE Proto Word! Generally translated as

"Get Out/Away-From That NOW"

As for cats you just have to say the same thing in Cat. It usually sounds like a short series of hisses. I freaked a friend out by instructing one of his kittens to get off the kitchen table...and it minded.

(Reply to this)


[info]merde
2005-12-09 01:51 am UTC (link)
this is a fascinating thread!

myself, i grew up in the DC area (DC, Maryland, and Virginia) and later moved to Charlotte, NC before landing in the San Francisco area.

faced with yard cows, my father, who grew up on a farm in Virginia, would've said something along the lines of "I reckon these here cows in my yard might just belong to you."

i've got a somewhat more eclectic communication style. i picture it going something like this:

me: dude. cows. got 'em. don't want 'em.
them: so?
me: don't make me get out the chainsaw.
them: dammit, you'd better be making coffee.

of course, that's an internet regional dialect, not a material-world one.

what i could really use is some kind of gender-specific, alternate-coast phrasebook. like, the east-coast female to west-coast male phrasebook. that i'd pay good money for.

(Reply to this)


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