ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-02 17:38:00
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Linguistics; Ozark English; "About Cows, and Ozark English Discourse"
About Cows, and Ozark English Discourse

Let's just suppose that when someone is about to speak they have four broad goals for the language sequence they use: that it be understood; that it be believed; that it give pleasure (or at minimum that it not provoke hostility); and that it be remembered. The way in which these goals are ranked in importance for the speaker is a matter of personal choice, with the most typical order probably being understanding, then believing, then either pleasure or remembrance -- depending. A crochety and elitist professor might rank a classroom utterance as RUBP; that is: "I want you to remember this. I hope you understand it. I'd prefer you to believe it, but if you don't, so be it. And I'm not particularly interested in whether it gives you any pleasure or not." The politician making a routine political speech might choose BPRU. The Ozark speaker who makes choices that strike the purist as excessively nonstandard usually does so deliberately, based on the ranking given to those four communication goals. Which brings us to those cows. Consider this:

1. "Come get your cows."

This utterance puts understanding first; it's in English, it's an unambiguous command, and it has no extra words in it to interfere with comprehension. It puts belief next; nobody would say such a thing if the cows weren't really there needing to be retrieved. Remembering follows; any Ozark English speaker knows this utterance is so rude that it's unforgettable. As for giving pleasure, the speaker is either almost indifferent to this goal or is deliberately working against it. [It wouldn't be true to say that the speaker hasn't considered giving pleasure at all. There are worse things that could have been said, such as "Come get your damfool cows" or "Come get your cows, or else."]

Here are some of the many alternative ways to start letting somebody know that their cows are on your property and should be removed by said somebody -- with the stipulation that they're all said neutrally, not sarcastically or condescendingly or with hostile intonation. Examples 2-9 are Ozark English; example 10 is not.

2. "Guess what I just saw in my front yard?"
3. "You might want to take a look at what's in my front yard."
3. "You'll never believe what I just saw in my front yard."
4. "Might could be you'd want to take a look out your east window toward my front yard."
5. "You know, I do believe your cows are out."
6. "I'm wondering ... do you know where your cows have got to?"
7. "Hey, guess where your cows are? [Or "are now?" Or "are this time?"]
8. "I do hate to say it, but I'm about at the end of my tether with your cows."
9. "I'm truly sorry to have to tell you this, but your cows are in my yard again."
10. "I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but your cows are in my yard again. I'm afraid you will have to come get them."

Each of these utterances demonstrates a speaker's strategy based upon a particular ranking of the four communication goals. Because come the day your neighbor's cows are in your yard and you want that neighbor to come get them, you can't say just any old thing. Cows are a nuisance in a way that's almost awesome. And if you don't choose your words with care, you'll find yourself with one of two outcomes: (a) your neighbor says, "Be damned if I'll come get 'em!" and hangs up on you; or (b) your neighbor says, "I'll get to that, first chance I have." Either of those responses means you're in for a bad day, and there is no County Cow Catcher you can call for assistance. The list of good excuses that can be offered for not yet having come to get those cows is as infinite as any formal construct you might care to devise.

Do not think that if you decide you'll just get rid of the cows yourself it will be easy. It is easier to move a department chairman than it is to move even one cow. Fire a .45 over the head of a department chairman or drive straight at one with a pickup truck, he (or she) will move; a cow will not. I have tried both of those tactics any number of times, and no cow has ever so much as budged. It's not just a matter of saying, "Shoo, cows!" Trust me.

If I were actually to say to you, "Come get your cows," one of the two things I want you to understand is that I don't give a hoot how you feel about that utterance or how you feel about me personally. "I'm afraid you will have to come get them" is almost as bad. I know someone who would say that, because that someone would rather suffer the consequences of cows than stoop to the use of Ozark English. That someone will forever suffer the consequences of cows-in-the-yard, and many other unpleasantries -- but it is her conscious and deliberate choice. It is a militant refusal to speak OzE. Publicly, she will blame Providence for the perpetual presence of other people's cows on her property, but she knows better.

It happens that the best choice on that list, the one least likely to end you up with a chronic cow problem, is the entirely nonstandard #4 with its double modal. That example has as its metamessage: "Now, there's a problem over here, and I'm not pleased, and we need to talk about it, and you need to fix it. But I want you to know that I am on your side and that I admire the way you look after your cows." And its ranking is UPRB.


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[info]hilleviw
2005-12-02 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I've got this image now of you waving a .45 at the department chairman "Peacetalk be damned, might could be I'm teaching this my way and you're going to like it!"

(Reply to this)


[info]redbird
2005-12-02 05:52 pm UTC (link)
I don't know your non-OzE-speaker, but that's not my dialect either, and I don't see any problem with 2, 3, or 5-9 in terms of standard English.

In such a circumstance (nobody near me keeps cows, as far as I know, nor do I currently have a front yard, alas) can see myself calling, or calling on, my neighbor and saying something like "Would you like to come over and have a cup of tea? I'd like to show you what's in my front yard." And then, I hope, s/he'd come over, we'd drink tea and talk, probably about non-cow-related topics but possibly also about the difficulties of keeping fences in order, and the cows would go home with their owner.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 06:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redbird, 2005-12-02 06:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lyonesse
2005-12-02 05:55 pm UTC (link)
how does #10 violate OzE? is it syntactic, idiomatic....?

is #4 the best choice because it is the syntactic construction most in violation of QE ("the queen's english") which is also valid in OzE? or is it something else expressed by the dual modal, such as politeness, as with the construction "If you please, might you perhaps..." in a QE request?

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 06:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lyonesse, 2005-12-02 06:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]which_chick
2005-12-02 06:00 pm UTC (link)
I love this example. I have *lived* this example -- friends of mine keep cows who do not stay in well because the fence is mostly symbolic and when I'm visiting and the cows are out, I am part of the cow retrieval team.

For the more urban readers:

Cows do get out.

People make phone calls to tell cow owners that their cows are out.

This is an absolutely real and current modern dialogue event such as might occur in any give weekend at my friend La's house.

(Reply to this)


[info]mrissa
2005-12-02 06:05 pm UTC (link)
The thing I have had the hardest time getting people to understand is that #s 2-4 are not "hidden messages." They are, in their own dialect, perfectly clear. Just as when a Minnesotan is asked how she is doing and says, "could be better," she is not hiding the fact that things are not good for her. She is not putting a good face on things or being a stoic. She is saying in the most certain terms her dialect has that this is bad. Other people who speak the same dialect interpret her words that way and not as a "stiff upper lip."

Similarly, "Guess what's in my front yard?", intoned properly, only leaves doubt if the speaker keeps more than one kind of livestock prone to getting out and creating havoc -- goats, for example, or small children. It is not genuinely a game of 20 Questions. The hearer may answer, "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" (phrased appropriately for that dialect) if he/she has the right relationship with the speaker, as a joke to smooth the edges of the conversation, but there is no actual uncertainty as to what has happened.

I know far, far too many people who think that if you do not use the phrase "your cows are in my yard," you have not communicated the cows' location, and I am driving myself up the proverbial wall trying to convince them that not everybody communicates that way -- and indeed, that almost everybody communicates in other ways at times they consider appropriate.

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(no subject) - [info]woodwardiocom, 2005-12-02 06:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-09 07:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-09 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-02 09:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-03 01:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-02 06:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]koogrr, 2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-03 03:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elisem, 2008-04-28 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trillian42, 2005-12-02 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)
not "hidden messages" - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-03 04:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-04 06:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: not "hidden messages" - [info]mrissa, 2005-12-04 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
cows can run...cows can fly - [info]mtmwdb, 2005-12-13 08:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: cows can run...cows can fly - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-18 01:15 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]woodwardiocom
2005-12-02 06:08 pm UTC (link)
-Hmm. I'd probably say something like, "Hey Joan, it's Jon. I'm afraid your cows are in my yard again. Let me know if I can help you get them back." This is very close to the way I bring problems, that aren't in my ambit, to the attention of the correct person, in my day job as a software engineer. "Hey Roland, I noticed the OXI interface coughed up some problems this weekend. Here's the relevant data. Let me know if I can help you with that."

-But, I'm not Ozark, so this might be rude in Ozark English.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-02 06:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Why's that? - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-04 01:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Why's that? - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-07-06 06:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]houseboatonstyx, 2006-04-05 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]babalon_it
2005-12-02 06:16 pm UTC (link)
My first thought would be to say:

Hi. Your cows are in my yard. Can I help you with getting them back home?

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(no subject) - [info]msminlr, 2005-12-03 04:02 am UTC (Expand)
now that you've got me thinking about it...
[info]dpolicar
2005-12-02 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Neat.

The first time, I'd probably go with some variant of "Sorry to bother you, but it's the most remarkable thing... there seem to be some cows in my front yard. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know if you recognize them?"

I'm not quite sure _why_ I'd say it that way. Of course there's all the hedginess, just to soften the effect. And I guess I'm giving them a handful of face-saving ways out, including refusing to accept responsibility but offering to take care of them for me "as a favor".

The second time, it would just seem too weird to pretend not to recognize the cows, even if we were all playing the same game. Not sure what I'd do.

I suspect what I'd actually do is deal with the cows myself, then a couple of days later start up some conversation about how difficult it is to control where cows get to, and how much of a nuisance that is for everyone, and how embarassing it is when cows end up in one's neighbors yard, and various ways for dealing with that.
Where in my head, I'm clearly saying: "I'm annoyed and expect you to at least apologize for your carelessness with your %#$!@#! cows."

I suspect this would be a singularly unhelpful way of dealing with the situation, but it does appear to be my general style. :-)

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - (Anonymous), 2005-12-03 12:47 am UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]dpolicar, 2005-12-03 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 01:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: now that you've got me thinking about it... - [info]leiacat, 2005-12-12 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rbos
2005-12-02 06:40 pm UTC (link)
I find that whacking cows with a shovel gets them movin' pretty quick.

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sounds dangerous to me... - [info]djinnthespazz, 2005-12-02 07:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cynthia1960
2005-12-02 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'll have to ask my brother about the phrasing that was used when he was told that a couple of his beef cattle were currently strolling down the main street of Sunol, California.

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[info]jehannamama
2005-12-02 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I lived on the edge of Appalacia for more than half my life, and cows in the yard were common, even in the middle of town. One would think that I would have learned some of the customs, at least so that I could communicate.... yet I had a great deal of difficulty with figuring out what people meant when they said some things, and the protocols, particularly in rural areas. I mean, there are these rituals that one goes through when one is wanting to ask a favor or even just for information, and by the time I hashed through all that, I'd end up being oblivious to what they were hinting around about wanting. Why not just ask me for that cup of sugar and then we could get that out of the way and have a nice natter over tea, if you have time?

Of course, I do have a hearing loss and social anxiety and probable mild Asperger's, and I was raised in Southern California, so anything that is other than totally up front, hit-me-with-a-2X4 blunt, is likely to whizz right over my head.

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Help me out, here... - [info]ninevirtues, 2005-12-02 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]jehannamama, 2005-12-02 10:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-03 06:20 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]jehannamama, 2005-12-04 03:24 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Help me out, here... - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-04 04:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]starcat_jewel
2005-12-02 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Why is it, would you say, that OzE seems not to contain the word "please"? To me, the basic/polite framing of this is, "Your cows are in my yard. Please come and get them." The tone of voice in which it's said may indicate anything from resignation to a neutral request to extreme annoyance, but the request itself is clear and polite.

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(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-02 07:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thraxarious, 2005-12-02 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-02 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-03 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 06:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-04 07:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]saavik, 2005-12-04 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-02 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-02 08:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-02 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2005-12-02 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-02 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starcat_jewel, 2005-12-03 01:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-03 05:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-03 02:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Response to delurker.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]tenacious_snail, 2005-12-04 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 08:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Response to delurker.... - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]istemi, 2005-12-03 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vvvexation, 2005-12-07 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]plymouth, 2005-12-08 10:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]appadil, 2005-12-12 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 04:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-12 04:44 am UTC (Expand)
"It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-03 02:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-06 01:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-07 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-07 06:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]dawnd, 2005-12-08 07:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]londonbard, 2005-12-10 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]redhawke, 2005-12-06 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke) - [info]steviedeviant, 2006-09-28 04:36 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "It's the indirect..." (response to redhawke)... and to steviedeviant.... - [info]ozarque, 2006-09-28 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Off-topic: How I found this discussion - [info]steviedeviant, 2006-09-30 03:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Off-topic: How I found this discussion.. response to steviedeviant... - (Anonymous), 2006-09-30 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Hinting is evil... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 08:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hinting is evil... - [info]griffen, 2005-12-09 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hinting is evil... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-09 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nolly, 2005-12-12 06:36 am UTC (